Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Haveringresident on June 30, 2024, 01:50:45 pm

Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on April 07, 2025, 09:48:13 pm
They say they have made changes to their PCNs. They haven't.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/havering-council-pcn-south-st-eastern-rd/msg65601/#msg65601

https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5792.0;attach=14397;image
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 30, 2025, 11:32:55 am
Costs application to be filed. To put it mildly, the OP was subjected to a barrage of errors which, in my view, went beyond the line of total incompetence.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on March 29, 2025, 05:03:05 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wVNhudsymlDpxE_l8GkS58Fr4gexGykK/view).
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 29, 2025, 09:47:00 am
My absolute pleasure as ever. cp will be along soon with the outcome.  ;D
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on March 29, 2025, 06:49:15 am
Email received from Tribunal. Appeal allowed. Finally, after 10 months!!
Thanks @Hippocrates  for getting this through successfully. 😄😄
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 29, 2025, 12:23:42 am
 ;D
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 26, 2025, 08:48:34 am
When I get this extra stuff done, I will be able to deal with some other cases today.  ;D

There was no NOR, no TMO and no formal reps. adduced by the council. Deary me. ::)
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 25, 2025, 07:05:27 pm
Sanguine Purgatory! More work to do.  :-X
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 24, 2025, 11:47:54 am
@ cp8759

The traffic order is The Havering (Traffic Movement and Speed Limit Regulations) (Consolidation) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QPmNRj0704PvB1innESyonltgtgusx86/view) and the map tile is here (https://store.traffweb.app/havering/documents/parkmap/msched/AD21_rv1_2.pdf).

Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 22, 2025, 12:07:37 pm
Well, two important documents have not been adduced.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on March 07, 2025, 12:21:28 pm
The plot thickens. And yet another member has had their PCN cancelled due to“ PCN letter incorrect wording”.

I am reminded of The Nolan Principles.  ::)

   
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on February 07, 2025, 07:54:07 pm
I have a forthcoming review hearing with the Chief Adjudicator shortly. 17th.

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/suggested-meeting-for-members-at-furnival-street-next-wednesday-12th-andor-17th/msg57080/#msg57080

Drinks are on me.  ;D Some straight talking will take place. Politely, of course.

This case is on 25th. Not only but also. PCNs are not right, website is not right. Wednesbury unreasonable. Then they send the wrong appeal form. Victor Meldrew stuff. "I don't believe it!"
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: H C Andersen on February 03, 2025, 01:44:48 pm

https://democracy.havering.gov.uk/documents/s74951/181.%20Parking%20PCN%20Discount%20Non-key%20Decision%20July%202024-Final.pdf
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on February 02, 2025, 12:31:29 pm
Havering PCNs are all over the place as is their website. Needs a JR application. More important now is to sort this one out asap. Appeal filed. Used the appeal form as guidance.  :D  :o  ::)
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on February 02, 2025, 12:15:45 pm
The law is that one can pay the discount at any time within the discount period despite submitting a representation.  So if Havering are saying on their documents that if you submit reps you are not entitled to the discount they are wrong in law, and need to be dragged over the coals on this.

I don't know is this answers your comment - from 22 July Havering Council removed the opportunity of the 50% discount  if appeal overturned
Not really. A case in Nottingham some years ago went to the adjudicators because the recipient sent in an appeal, then attempted to pay the discount before the discount period expired, and was prevented from doing so on the payment entry screen. The appeal at TPT was won, and the adjudicator stated that there was the absolute right in law to pay the discount within the discount period irrespective of any representations having been submitted. Havering cannot override laws approved by Parliament. 

So what do the Havering PCNs say ?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on February 02, 2025, 11:33:30 am
Second PM sent as a reply. We need to get on with this.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on February 02, 2025, 11:13:11 am
The law is that one can pay the discount at any time within the discount period despite submitting a representation.  So if Havering are saying on their documents that if you submit reps you are not entitled to the discount they are wrong in law, and need to be dragged over the coals on this.

I don't know is this answers your comment - from 22 July Havering Council removed the opportunity of the 50% discount  if appeal overturned
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on February 01, 2025, 11:11:41 pm
The law is that one can pay the discount at any time within the discount period despite submitting a representation.  So if Havering are saying on their documents that if you submit reps you are not entitled to the discount they are wrong in law, and need to be dragged over the coals on this.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on February 01, 2025, 10:08:02 pm
I am representing another member re a 2003 Act alleged contravention. This person has not been offered the discount in the NOR. Therefore, I am somewhat justly aggrieved - pi$$ed off as the famous Bogsy from pepipoo would say.

The time is approaching when I want to go to The Strand with some locus standi. This outfit is quite appalling.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on February 01, 2025, 08:38:07 pm
Beautiful NOR=Total bolleaux plus wrong form attached!  I am more than happy to deal with this for you. Absolute ignorance.  I will PM you my details. We may be looking at costs too. I do expect them to DNC once they wake up.

BTW, I have my own cunning plan to be realised very soon.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on February 01, 2025, 05:30:09 pm
UPDATE 1 FEB 2025

I sent in an email complaint to Havering Council on 30 January regarding Traffic & Parking Control department, outlining the representation lost by them and the Order for Recovery sent to me which was not registered.

A reply was received the same day which said:

“A copy of your challenge sent to Miss Green on the ***10th January has been added to the case as a formal challenge and will be reviewed tomorrow.  A decision will be sent to you by email and post.

The TEC fee and surcharges have been removed and there is no need for a further Statutory Declaration to be made to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Please accept my apologies for the Order for Recovery being issued before being registered.”

*** this was an email where I enlisted the help of a local councilllor to obtain info on when I should receive communication on the Order for Recovery, given that it was almsot six months since the PCN

Today, by post I received, a Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations, attaching a Notice of Appeal which I had added to my One Drive : https://1drv.ms/b/c/ff2efe087033259f/EV47H4w0IN1MoXAKQdczhf4BGoBg9bD4l0skGL3TNHInbA?e=S4zJsH

Now unsure what the next steps are as I appear to be starting over again!!

I'm also away at the end of the week so anything which needs dealing with in 14 days I don't have time
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 27, 2025, 02:07:04 pm
I phoned the TEC Office to find out if they were open at weekend if I sent in the OfR by signed and tracked.
When they checked the reference I was then told it had not been registered and not to send it in and to contact the council.

I was ready to send it so it had already been signed at the solicitors office.  This morning I received an email to say that there was an error in processing a batch.
A previous email from the parking manager stated that unfortunately my hand delivered letter had been lost in transit. (I have video evidence of handing it over)

I'm not sure I understand the last part of your message
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: H C Andersen on January 27, 2025, 01:54:47 pm
So you received the OfR on 18th Jan but have since discovered that this had been sent in error by the council because they had not in fact registered the debt with TEC. Is this correct?

How did you find out e.g. were you informed by TEC? (once you've received an OfR further contact with the council is not required procedurally neither is it recommended).

A cautionary word...

It appears that the council deny receiving your representations(you used the term 'lost in transit' but is this just your take on matters or have the council accepted that you delivered representations which were then mislaid by them?). I thought that in an earlier post reference was made to the council's PCN progress system which included the entry NOR issued?

As I posted previously, the process does not revert to a new PCN but instead the authority must refer the matter to the adjudicator who, because of the particular SD grounds you've chosen(did not receive a NOR) will in all likelihood not automatically register the issue as an appeal but instead give directions to you and the authority to discover the whys and wherefores of your reps.
So, in parallel with submitting the SD, I suggest you see what evidence you have regarding submitting reps.

Edit - no notices in this process are sent by registered mail.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on January 27, 2025, 12:50:24 pm
CouncillorRay.Morgon@havering.gov.uk

Jo Green | Parking Manager

London Borough of Havering | Highways, Traffic & Parking

Town Hall, Main Road, Romford RM1 3BB



t 01708  432 913

e jo.green@havering.gov.uk 

w www.havering.gov.uk

text relay 18001 01708 432 913
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 27, 2025, 12:09:10 pm
It's a joke. As well as sending the unregistered Order of Recovery they admit that my hand delivered appeal was lost in transit! 
Will be sending a complaint to Ray Morgon
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on January 27, 2025, 11:50:24 am
When it gets sorted, let me know.  Meanwhile, stick in a formal complaint and ask them to cancel the PCN because of their conduct. Ray Morgon is the leader of the council.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on January 27, 2025, 11:09:12 am
So they acted unlawfully by sending out an Order for Recovery but had not actually registered the debt at TEC that permitted them to do so. Time for a complaint here to the head of the council. Havering their usual venal and rapacious selves as usual.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 27, 2025, 10:17:43 am
Can't believe the council. My order of Recovery hadn't been registered with TEC so they told me not to send it. I had already been to the solicitor and paid for it to be signed.
I informed the council and there was a problem with their system so I have now received another Order of Recovery which again will need to be signed by the solicitor!!
Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 21, 2025, 11:23:51 pm
Ok thanks. Wasn't clear on the form.

Also council have already confirmed that they couldn't find my hand delivered representation and that it was lost in transit
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on January 21, 2025, 11:06:57 pm
I received the Order of Recovery on Saturday 18th and as I am going to be ticking the box that says that I made representations but didn't receive a rejection notice and the PE3 states underneath- My Reasons are (give full reasona)

Without a reason I am not sure why it would need to be signed off legally?
You don't need to enter reasons, just tick the relevant box.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 21, 2025, 10:35:10 pm
I received the Order of Recovery on Saturday 18th and as I am going to be ticking the box that says that I made representations but didn't receive a rejection notice and the PE3 states underneath- My Reasons are (give full reasona)

Without a reason I am not sure why it would need to be signed off legally?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on January 21, 2025, 10:29:02 pm
Is your PE3 in or out of time ? In-time submissions don't need any text in the Reasons box, you just need to tick the box that matches your case.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 21, 2025, 08:47:26 pm
Sorry - know you guys are very busy - need to submit Order or Recovery for PE3 - " I made representations etc.... and disn't wwant to mess up the wording

Ta
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 18, 2025, 06:21:20 pm
ORDER OF RECOVERY RECEIVED
Sorry - trying to keep as short as poss.

Outlining details in brief so far, as I’ve now received the Order of Recovery (after waiting six months!)
Date of PCN 7 June 2024

Up until now this is what has been advised (this may not apply at this stage as I believe I have to say that I made representation)

“The website ground along gives you an almost certain win as the grounds listed on the council website are all wrong: ground F, G and H on the council website are all inapplicable. Add this with the council's likely inability to supply a copy of your video to the tribunal, and you've got them on two grounds (if they can't supply a copy of the video you send with the representations, then that's a failure to supply a true copy of the representations and that alone will win the day)”.

Above done & sent 24hr tracked & signed on 3 July (Royal Mail didn’t deliver & was lost- taken up with RM).
9 July hand delivered letter & other sets of CD’s to council. 
Video evidence of arriving and handing over. 
Not received and now say it is lost!!

Received letter 22 July – no representation – increased charge of £195

Regularly contacted TEC on a weekly /10 days basis until I finally received a response from the council 10 January, that I should receive Order of Recovery by 17 January.

Advised: “TEC then order the CC and OfR to be cancelled and the matter reverts to the PCN stage. AS you submitted reps the council must pass the matter to the adjudicator for a decision”.

Received today so I am assuming I send the PE3 saying I made representation with all the details I stated about RM and hand delivery etc.
I then have to get it signed by a solicitor etc and send the signed form to TEC in Northampton.
 
Signed and tracked again?

Thanks again
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: H C Andersen on January 10, 2025, 09:17:52 pm
IMO,


(2)The statutory declaration must state that the person making it—

(a)did not receive the penalty charge notice in question;

(b)made representations to the enforcing authority under paragraph 1 above but did not receive a notice of rejection from that authority; or

(c)appealed to a traffic adjudicator under paragraph 4 above against the rejection by that authority of representations made by him under paragraph 1 above but had no response to the appeal.

served.

(10)Where—

(a)sub-paragraph (7) above applies; and

(b)the order of the court is deemed to have been revoked under sub-paragraph (8) above,
...
(11)..a declaration has been served under sub-paragraph (2)(b) or (c) above, the enforcing authority shall refer the case to the traffic adjudicator who may give such direction as he considers appropriate.


When your SD is accepted by TEC and the CC and OfR cancelled (under the grounds that you made reps but did not receive a response) then the burden is on the authority. The matter does not revert to the PCN stage.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 10, 2025, 08:51:21 pm
Thanks.
I'll wait for it to come through and ask for further advice
Not really sure why it needs to be signed off by a solicitor etc though.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on January 10, 2025, 07:37:29 pm
I've had a quick look at the PE3 and I believe the box that I would tick  would be I made representation ............etc but did not receive a rejection notice.

I would still need to give a reason for appeal the PCN 
Is this also correct?  - get it signed before a commissioner of oaths, such as a solicitor, Justice of the Peace, or a County Court officer?
What you are doing has absolutely nothing to do with the alleged contravention on the PCN itself. All you are doing is telling TEC that you followed the process by submitting representations, but received no notice of rejection. TEC then order the CC and OfR to be cancelled and the matter reverts to the PCN stage. AS you submitted reps the council must pass the matter to the adjudicator for a decision.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 10, 2025, 06:39:32 pm
I've had a quick look at the PE3 and I believe the box that I would tick  would be I made representation ............etc but did not receive a rejection notice.

I would still need to give a reason for appeal the PCN   
Is this also correct?  - get it signed before a commissioner of oaths, such as a solicitor, Justice of the Peace, or a County Court officer?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on January 10, 2025, 04:57:36 pm
Not quite right.  They send you an Order for Recovery and then you respond with the relevant statement form, which depends on what Act the PCN was served under. So for you, it will be a Statutory Declaration (Form PE3) because the Act on the PCN is the LLA & TfL Act 2003.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on January 10, 2025, 04:45:37 pm
After enlisting the help of my local councillor as I've now reached the 6 month stage without the Order of Recovery, I finally received communication from the council.  I should receive the Order of Recovery by 17th January and have 21 days to file my representation against the PCN.

I would appreciate your help with the wording for the Order of Recovery.

Many thanks
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on October 23, 2024, 09:27:25 pm
Well, think on the bright side; the longer they wait before registering the debt, the more unfairly they are acting. A public authority given penal powers must act fairly, expeditiously, and in the public interest,  when exercising those powers.  So when you finally get to confront them at an adjudication, you can claim unfair practice by the authority.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on October 23, 2024, 06:33:32 pm
Another month on - still no Order for Recovery!.  It's becoming a joke.  I have been phoning TEC regularly each week.
Any idea if there is a cut off point when I have to have had the Order?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on September 21, 2024, 09:00:00 pm
At todays date - 21st September, no sign of Order of Recovery and I'll now be away but will be checking with TEC.
I can get a neighbour to check my mail. If anything arrives in my absence is there anything in the paperwork I should get her to copy to me?
Everything so we are aware of the dates.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on September 21, 2024, 08:02:41 pm
At todays date - 21st September, no sign of Order of Recovery and I'll now be away but will be checking with TEC.
I can get a neighbour to check my mail. If anything arrives in my absence is there anything in the paperwork I should get her to copy to me?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on September 12, 2024, 10:55:10 pm
Preparation not hope.  8)
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on September 12, 2024, 09:52:11 pm
I'm hoping so🤞
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on September 12, 2024, 09:25:33 pm
Yours should be the same.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on September 12, 2024, 09:21:45 pm
Thanks. Yes I read that it won. Great news
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on September 12, 2024, 09:06:03 pm
Have a good one. I am off on the 13th to sit under the Plane Tree. But will be watching. BTW the other case was won.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17iJ5DUlgIK8w2hnj4GPadoaqvRq4CVcN/view
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on September 12, 2024, 04:25:21 pm
Thanks. I'll check again before I leave
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on September 12, 2024, 04:00:40 pm
Within 21 days to file a Statutory Declaration from the date shown on the postmark of the OFR.

This is the time limit.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on September 12, 2024, 03:50:45 pm
22nd - 4th October
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on September 12, 2024, 02:02:40 pm
How long are you away?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on September 12, 2024, 09:20:12 am
Still nothing on the Order for Recovery.  Have been phoning TEC weekly.
I'm going to follow up with the email sent by Havering but I'm concerned as I'm likely to be away on holiday if anything arrives.  I can get neighbour to check mail if necessary. 
What happens in the event that I'm away?.  I will be adding that in the email to the council
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on August 28, 2024, 09:03:04 pm
Keep us posted please. I have a case on 3rd September.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/london-borough-of-havering-31j-pcn-entering-and-stopping-in-box-junction-pcn-mai/msg34141/#msg34141
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on August 28, 2024, 08:11:56 pm
Following submission on 10 August, of the online form as suggested I have received the below email from Havering council today, despite stating that I hand delivered my represenation. I have been following up regularly with TEC as suggested.

"Dear Mrs XXXX

Thank you for your email.

Our records show no representation was received via post or via the online facility against HGxxxx

Please be advised the Order for Recovery will be served by post once the registration of the debt has been completed by the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC).

There are no facilities for the system to issue the Order for Recovery via email.

If you wish to get an update on registration of the debt with TEC we would advise you contact us in approx. 14 days for the update and we can review what stage the case is at "


Should I reply or just wait for the Order of Recovery and what is the time frame for that?  PCN 7 June and Charge Certificate 22 July.

Thanks
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on August 10, 2024, 08:36:38 am
Why not contact the council!

Apart from anything else it attempts to summarise the situation, sets out the procedure for your benefit, gives them feedback and lodges a request to be notified by email.

All they could say is no!

Dear Sir,
PCN ********

Have done 2) sent by email and 3) done online

Will see if either is acknowledged and if not will send by post but at least I have a reference number for the PCN online query form.

Will follow up on Monday with TEC to see if Order for Recovery has been submitted.

Thanks
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on August 08, 2024, 12:43:57 pm
Unfortunately when I phoned to ascertain where online I could find the information on my re my PCN and Notice of Rejection, it was just a recorded call.

A letter has to be sent with any queries.
Although there is an email address for reviewing footage they don't appear to acknowledge anyone, according to others who have tried to contact them

I have a couple of options:
1. Send by post the information you kindly provided (and hope it will arrive) Mention delivered by hand?
2, Attempt to send email - which I think will be rejected
3. Add the details on the Parking PCN Online enquiry form (I know it is supposed to be for our of time) but it might be read ?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: H C Andersen on August 08, 2024, 11:35:35 am
Why not contact the council!

Apart from anything else it attempts to summarise the situation, sets out the procedure for your benefit, gives them feedback and lodges a request to be notified by email.

All they could say is no!

Dear Sir,
PCN ********

I made representations against the NTO for the above on **** and recently received a Charge Certificate. This prompted me to check on your website and I can see that you issued a Notice of Rejection on ****.

It is my intention to submit a Statutory Declaration to the effect that I made representations but did not receive a response which, if made in time, would engage the procedure for Invalid Notices. My worry is that as one letter has gone astray this could happen to any Order for Recovery, but my concerns would be allayed if I knew when the OfR was sent as I would be able to download the necessary document and action at my end whether the order arrives or not.

In short, I am not seeking to step outside procedure or debate your decision on my representations, I am merely giving you feedback with a request that you would email me when the OfR is issued.

Hugs
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on August 08, 2024, 11:20:24 am
For an in-time submission, it's just a box to tick. Out-of-time is another matter !
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on August 08, 2024, 10:47:15 am
Thanks for responde
If I complete the online form for no receipt of Order, what additional info about everyone, should I add which they request?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on August 08, 2024, 09:10:16 am
Should I not let them know by the online form that I've not received it?

Little info on the main PCN page which says £195
Can't find anywhere else with more info.

Called TEC this morning - nothing listed as yet
Of course as well as you checking diligently, as you seem to be doing so far, (well done !), they must send you by post an Order for Recovery. However, with postal delays etc, that's why we advise keeping an eye on the TEC registration process, because once it's sent out, there are a fixed number of days in which to respond.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on August 08, 2024, 01:04:19 am
Should I not let them know by the online form that I've not received it?

Little info on the main PCN page which says £195
Can't find anywhere else with more info.

Called TEC this morning - nothing listed as yet
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on August 08, 2024, 12:50:10 am
It can't go to the bailiffs until they have registered the debt at TEC, hence you need to be pro-active in checking for the registration. You could also ring TEC every so often quoting the PCN number.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on August 07, 2024, 11:40:05 pm
Check the PCN status regularly.

I did post earlier but not sure it posted as can't see it.
14 days was up for the Charge Certificate on 4 August
No update on Havering website except charge of £195

They have a Parking PCN Online enquiry form which has a drop down for "I have not received the Order for Recovery"

Should I complete that?
It says please provide some additonal details - what should this say?

Concerned that it will go to the next step of Recovery Agents

Screenshot on One Drive: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJMbzi9tIc2HoAuKpQ?e=1N81KG

Thanks again and apologies finding it difficult to follow and answer the trail
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 30, 2024, 10:04:01 am
@cp8759  Just reading through all the info so I'm clear on everything. Going back to your comment "grounds listed on the council website are all wrong: ground F, G and H on the council website are all inapplicable." 

I have been trying to find that on the website and gone through each section,but failed to find. 
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 28, 2024, 10:49:07 pm
Check the PCN status regularly.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 28, 2024, 10:12:31 pm
The problem is not receiving post from them that they say they've sent.
This seems to be a common occurrence with others saying the same.
What happens if I don't receive anything?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 28, 2024, 10:02:18 pm
They will send it when you do not pay.  Check the status regularly please.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 28, 2024, 08:54:42 pm
The details only say they may apply to County Court to register charge cert. if CC makes an Order for Recovery.  If they don't, how long do I wait?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 27, 2024, 05:28:08 pm
Wait for the Order for Recovery which will come with the Statutory Declaration.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 27, 2024, 04:26:39 pm
Absolute joke of a reply:

Received a letter dated 22 July from Havering:

1.No representations made (hand delivered and video’d doing it)
2. They have issued a notice of rejection etc and no appeal (never received anything)
3. They issued Notice of rejection of Adjudicator’s recommendation (not to me – nothing received)
4. An appeal was made to an adjudication which was either unsuccessful or withdrawn !!

Total increased charge £195

Will attempt to upload the letter otherwise it is on my U drive: https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJJnL8l5bdm0mBMsaw?e=xW67Rx
No luck with uploading  I get a message folder is full

What's the next step please as there is no acknowledgement of the hand delivered representation?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 23, 2024, 10:59:33 pm
Just relax and obtain evidence re envelope etc.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 23, 2024, 10:51:14 pm
Didn't realise that! :(
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: H C Andersen on July 23, 2024, 07:32:52 pm
That's not your choice. They are obliged to serve a Notice of Acceptance or Rejection by first-class post.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 23, 2024, 12:16:38 pm
Thank you.
They still need to reply to me and I'm concerned about any receipt of that with Royal Mail.  I did provide email and mobile number and stated NOT to communicate by post but doubt they will take any notice
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 23, 2024, 10:42:41 am
This applies to parking contraventions.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 22, 2024, 07:32:02 pm
In the end I had to delivery the CDs and letter by hand on 10 July (I videod my entry and handover of the pack) to the council offices as the 24hr track is still sitting at the Distribution centre since the 4 July.

Havering Council have updated their PCN details and after 22 July there is no 50% discount if appeal fails.Doesn't affect me as my appeal was prior to 22 July (today)but have added the document on my One Drive:
https://1drv.ms/w/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJJlUUvizM-ZYqF50w?e=r5jfCa

What I am concerned about is that they have 56 days to reply which is fine but a neighbour received a PCN and didn't receive the rejection letter. 
Havering Council said that she must have as it would have been returned to them if not. 
She ended up paying as the fine which was incorrect was running into a couple of hundred pounds.

Having experienced poor service with Royal Mail and the 24hr track and sign should I chase up prior to that time? If of course I could contact them!
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2024, 06:10:24 pm
The deadline for representations to be made is 18 July.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 05, 2024, 06:20:16 pm
Although this representation was sent on 3 July 24hr track & sign it hasn't arrived and no sign of it having left the depot since arriving in Romford on 00:56 yesterday (4th). No further luck on phoning - just told it was an 'aim' to deliver in that timescale!

The date of the notice was 19 June - how long should I wait without confirmation of delivery before taking the next step which will probably have to be hand delivered?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 03, 2024, 10:25:59 pm
Thanks👍
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 10:22:43 pm
It's not an appeal, it's a representation. I also think the council will refuse it, but you then have strong grounds to appeal to the tribunal where I think you have very good odds of winning.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 03, 2024, 03:02:06 pm
Sent 24hr track & sign
Havering are well known for refusing appeals so fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: John U.K. on July 03, 2024, 10:18:40 am
Quote
I have the address for Havering Council - should I just mark this for the Parking Appeals or Contravention Appeals Officer ?

The address is on the PCN, under 'How to make represenatation'.


Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 03, 2024, 09:57:00 am
Can I ask what is considered to be inadequate about the signage as I am sure they will disallow this?  I have the address for Havering Council - should I just mark this for the Parking Appeals or Contravention Appeals Officer ? Thanks
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 12:10:43 am
I'd just send both CDs (there's no point in sending a rewritable disc) by special delivery (a bit expensive but worth it in this instance), here's the text of the representation:

Dear London Borough of Havering,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur, owing to the inadequacy of the signage. I refer you to the video on the attached CDs.

Yours faithfully,

Obviously make sure to keep the tracking number and check when it's been delivered.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 02, 2024, 08:44:28 am
Unfortunately only an email address for viewing the footage. What would be the best postage option use - tracked or 1st class signed for?  Just getting myself prepared.

I managed to copy onto CD-R which I found. I have other options if better - CD-RW or DVD-RW. I also did both options on separate CDs - 1 for to 'use like a USB flash drive and the other to use with a CD/DVD player' as I didn't know which was the best option. The one to use with CD does not open automatically so if the other is suitable for USB then I'd prefer to use that one.
I copied the video I took on dash cam yesterday - called 'short clip with signage'.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2024, 12:21:36 am
Could it not be emailed rather than on CD?. Do you mean the latest video clip from today?
Does the PCN provide an email address where representations can be sent? As the resolution of your photos is so low I can't actually read the representations page. Obviously email would be better but it might not be an option if no email address is given.

I was referring to the dashcam video you posted showing the signage.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 10:19:57 pm
EDIT

Found CD-R / CD-RW and DVD -RW.
OPTIONS - use like USB flash drive or with a CD/DVD player?

Could it not be emailed rather than on CD?. Do you mean the latest video clip from today?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 01, 2024, 10:03:35 pm
@Haveringresident forget about paying the PCN tomorrow, the website ground along gives you an almost certain win as the grounds listed on the council website are all wrong: ground F, G and H on the council website are all inapplicable. Add this with the council's likely inability to supply a copy of your video to the tribunal, and you've got them on two grounds (if they can't supply a copy of the video you send with the representations, then that's a failure to supply a true copy of the representations and that alone will win the day).

Would you be able to put the video you've filmed onto a CD and post it to the council? Please confirm before doing anything, as I'll have to draft some wording for you.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 09:55:29 pm
Could I have clarification if I'm likely to be able to appeal? Getting lost on the jargon unfortunately and will need to pay the PCN tomorrow.
Have uploaded a short video with signage photos
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 07:49:05 pm
@cp8759
Details attached in link with further photos of signage.

Is anyone able to clarify whether I can appeal as I'm now confused about the info and will have to pay the PCN tomorrow.
I've never in my life had a PCN so I'm struggling with the terminology.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 04:21:27 pm
I'm being a bit thick here but how do I explain this in the details for the appeal as I can't find the info that you refer to on the PCN and thought that was also mentioned by Incandecent and disputed by cp8759?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 01, 2024, 04:09:22 pm
I don't seem to be able to include the latest quote from Hippocrates


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by the info on PCN being on an entirely different PCN etc
The ground about the traffic order belongs to parking legislation therefore it iw wrong and misleading to include it in this moving traffic PCN.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 04:02:05 pm
As requested a quick video clip of the road with previous signage (which I didn't see) plus photos of the signage close up on One Drive : https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJI-uAoaJDT18ru4HQ?e=XWQSep


I also read the details in the excel cases 587-603 in which similar cases appear to relate to details with the PCN being different to those details on the council online drop down on the website which I don't believe apply here ?
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 03:50:20 pm
I don't seem to be able to include the latest quote from Hippocrates


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by the info on PCN being on an entirely different PCN etc
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on July 01, 2024, 08:47:25 am
You said where previously advised. I've not seen any other advice or where is says it is unenforceable.
Could you enlarge on this info please
Thanks
I advised this on a similar thread. Just say the PCN contains information to be included on an entirely different PCN in a separate legislation and therefore is a nonsense.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on July 01, 2024, 08:02:15 am
I believe I have until tomorrow to pay if I have no reason to appeal-date of notice 19th June tomorrow is the 14th day I believe.
I will take time to read all the info above
I have taken a short clip from my web cam and slowed it down - on my One drive. From 28 June
I'm not aware of any signs in St Mary's Lane or from the other direction but will try and double check today.
The only sign I saw (or didn't see) was just before the entry to the prophibited area

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJI8N_3nz6mOEIEzCw?e=KP1ACB
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on July 01, 2024, 01:04:46 am
I stand corrected !

I think I got confused with "procedural impropriety".
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 11:55:24 pm
The PCN has been issued under the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003, and the statutory grounds for an appeal do not include the first one on the list, (no contravention of an order etc).  This is only a statutory ground under the Traffic Management Act 2004.
Yes it is, see paragraph 1(4)(b) here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/paragraph/1/enacted

The website is more helpful:

(https://i.imgur.com/jUZt5sM.png)

To understand why see the cases on rows 587 to 603 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A587) (click the case name in column D to open).

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvwpavAptkE

GSV is out of date so it would be helpful if @Haveringresident could get us some photos of the main road, both to show the visibility of the signs from St. Marys Lane and also to check for advance warning signs, ideally a photo from around here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/bM9qsxWHzGKFawt59

The traffic order is The Havering (Traffic Movement and Speed Limit Regulations) (Consolidation) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QPmNRj0704PvB1innESyonltgtgusx86/view) and the map tile is here (https://store.traffweb.app/havering/documents/parkmap/msched/AD21_rv1_2.pdf).
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Incandescent on June 30, 2024, 10:51:52 pm
You said where previously advised. I've not seen any other advice or where is says it is unenforceable.
Could you enlarge on this info please
Thanks
The PCN has been issued under the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003, and the statutory grounds for an appeal do not include the first one on the list, (no contravention of an order etc).  This is only a statutory ground under the Traffic Management Act 2004.

Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on June 30, 2024, 09:55:52 pm
You said where previously advised. I've not seen any other advice or where is says it is unenforceable.
Could you enlarge on this info please
Thanks
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Hippocrates on June 30, 2024, 07:37:45 pm
As previously advised: the ground re traffic order does not apply to this legislation therefore the PCN is unenforceable.
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: John U.K. on June 30, 2024, 06:11:20 pm
For convenience

(https://db3pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mZT2vZlNpeHI38OK3TIhlaF47t7B1mQJzNgTSVM3MN-ZvB68lZwASrOYMI0BMAfpw_WIdH3oKhNGibTvfCBYVXTO1KZQSwWb7s8t60fblTKaNpdpEJdhrQ3mOfF8wnMKz98sEpInmqbRxXaZNg_M71CcX33cfasLpwpFUc-Q6dPe-HQbo7XnS4CGWZM4gdyYb8UwKgyLK5choyFYsOLs3_w?encodeFailures=1&width=451&height=615)

(https://db3pap004files.storage.live.com/y4ma435gCexCt8cbLHv6oHV0x152qRme5u40dlIvMqZi5ZQLENHb6UOZav9V9gBnYdaPMFj_8wSP6rS9bsHoN2Q8QpWVTucj6-VoLwSQCIWsEbmLVlmKPqblfKga_ZscXRMtoW-C0ZTLbQ8783uOYVI5OM6vgK5m2XkvTrGO97nbHFNUUJahgq6YX3HgGgMmvWuLV7STstYZY99Z9YpnZ_4yw?encodeFailures=1&width=293&height=409)

(https://db3pap004files.storage.live.com/y4maRI07XxQKYwsB4JL_j65m6gw96ynFr7JL-SK2JuRZo4HiGq1jC06lQBmTqU_yuCUYnQcD2M_NwU64gGrug_XW9DM4Z6bzf3Orh2_9kvxeHOEzHvvfvNBmJAWb2SVc8cA-TIk4bcQWi0YtDKpoS49gURtf8rE1Ay-7Cx86OUNruq3N4Wbmk8N0ADzG94hZkgCcMJQK0dk9HUz1IpzQkUdfQ?encodeFailures=1&width=455&height=614)

(https://db3pap004files.storage.live.com/y4mVioVGndVsHMaU-7K6WejoEJJdIDqbTrCamauyto8KXjNv606grumW59VFNGqheI-kG-fbtdFJhWEhnQW38NlUhDvhN0INQglxLkhCO_HqKPTDLH7RGAWifDXRTvvSkLh19XcWVazIOO20Vnjip8P_3aA2CYLaFGpL6JvPCUgasVVHctmlOAHFkcAQ2VYWb8faVtcxWb09F09fJSuRL6xAg?encodeFailures=1&width=640&height=360)
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on June 30, 2024, 02:37:53 pm
I posted up the PCN with photos so not sure why they are not showing - it was a direct upload. Have reduced photo size but says upload folder full

Updated post with One Drive link and GSV link
Title: Re: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: John U.K. on June 30, 2024, 02:29:29 pm
For meaningful advice have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up here all sides of the PCN (redact only name & address, leave everything else in) and a GSV link to the location.
Title: Contravention code 53J – Havering – entering school zone
Post by: Haveringresident on June 30, 2024, 01:50:45 pm
Havering council
Failing to comply with restriction  vehicles entering pedestrian zone

I realise that I have left it too late for much advice  :( (didn’t think I’d be able to dispute it and then found your site) but I suppose I am querying whether the signs and the way they are placed can be disputed?

I entered the zone as 15.12 – it is not a road I go into but I think on that day traffic was at a standstill and I went in to turn around and go back.
I’m not sure what the requirements of the signs are but I didn’t see them and would not have been able to read them if I was turning in quickly – it’s a busy road. 

These signs are placed straight on at the near edge of the road so no chance of avoiding or turning around.
I feel that they should be placed at an angle so can be read easily but maybe that’s the point – they want the money!

Photo link to One drive - hope that's ok to post as upload folder full https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ap8lM3AI_i7_hJI0qxkbMr75qA1ryw?e=W3dDgV

Link to GSV https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fpj6vzoffSj95jN9