3. TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
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TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
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Crossposted from pepipoo.

My vehicle was stopped in a loading bay erroneously on a red route, outside of loading hours. Driver admits the error. Had they parked the adjacent parking bay, all would have been fine!

The windscreen PCN issued is, for the most part, totally illegible. It's printed on thermal paper and the CEO's printer/paper must have been faulty.
The PCN number is itself very hard to read and I only succeeded in getting the photo evidence from the TfL website following arduous trial-and-error. At least two of the characters (first and last) are ambiguous.

Would there be any grounds for appeal here? Still within the discount period for informal reps. The PCN number is so illegible that it makes getting on to the website, viewing the evidence (and making [discounted] payment) very hard.

Looking at the known flaws spreadsheet, it would appear this PCN also has the TMA2004 and may/will flaws.

Thanks!






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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #1 on: »
Give us the PCN number and number plate please.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on July 29, 2023, 02:56:17 pm
Give us the PCN number and number plate please.

VRM: YS21TNO
PCN: GF83565073
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #3 on: »
TFL photos:









Please can you confirm whether there is any indication of water damage to the PCN?

If not, and it is undisputably a printing fault, then the PCN is so hopelessly defective that it's a virtually guaranteed win.

GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/SskfLZhYhnQShbBD8

I'll get hold of the traffic order.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #4 on: »
I do not believe there is any water damage. There are some blue streaks in the paper (you can see them in the 2nd photo in the original post) though.

Might the known flaws (TMA2004, may/will wording) constitute stronger grounds for appeal?
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #5 on: »
Gerald Styles rejected the will / may argument in Jamal Hossain v Transport for London (2200229658, 05 August 2020), but it's always possible another adjudicator might take a different view.

There's another argument about whether the person who issued the PCN was wearing the required uniform, but that depends on whether it was a PCSO employed by the MET police, or a direct employee of Transport for London.

However by far the strongest argument is the faulty printing of the PCN, as long as there's no evidence of water damage it should be an easy appeal. This would however be dependant on you going to a hearing in person and exhibiting the PCN to the adjudicator, but providing you can do that (or someone can go on your behalf) it's hard to see how you couple possibly lose.

Some of your images are not loading up, please see guidance here on how to post, imgur typically works very well.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #6 on: »
I am wondering how I can prove lack of water damage.

I don't believe it's water damaged - PCN was definitely in this condition when removed from the windshield - but I imagine an adjudicator would assess 'on the balance of probabilities'.

The top half of the PCN (top two uploaded images) is largely illegible, and it is this half which contains the specific information such as PCN number, penalty amounts etc. The bottom half of the PCN (3rd and 4th images) are printed normally.
It could be argued that if the printer was/is faulty, the whole PCN would have been illegible.

This is why I thought TMA2004 & may/will flaws might be a better approach. But I suppose I could include those as well as the illegibility.
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on August 02, 2023, 05:57:10 pm
Some of your images are not loading up, please see guidance here on how to post, imgur typically works very well.

Those are just the CEO (or PSCO) photos, which you have uploaded subsequently anyway :)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 06:13:10 pm by NotFair »
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: NotFair on August 02, 2023, 06:06:27 pm
I am wondering how I can prove lack of water damage.
Paper that is water damaged normally bulges out and becomes crinkled, and is usually pretty obvious. If the paper is the correct shape and size and it rests flat on a flat surface, it's unlikely the misprinting can be explained away as water damage.

Obviously we can't examine the physical PCN ourselves so we just have to go by what you tell us.

You can include as many grounds as you wish, as long as they're at least arguable. You only need to succeed on one point.

If you've not made reps yet, write a draft based on all of the above and we'll tidy it up for you.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 10:51:43 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #9 on: »
Here's my attempt:

Quote
I write to appeal this PCN as it fails a number of basic procedural criteria necessary for enforcement.

1. The PCN is barely legible due to poor print quality; this is a procedural impropriety. A large proportion of the PCN is unreadable, including important details such as the PCN number, date of service, VRM, charge amount and discount details, and payment instructions. Accessing the TfL portal to look up the PCN took multiple trial-and-error attempts. The London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (under which this PCN should have been issued - see below) states that the PCN must contain this basic information, which it does not, due to illegibility.

2. The PCN has been issued under the Traffic Management Act 2004. No stopping is not a contravention under this Act. The PCN has been issued under the wrong Act; this is a procedural impropriety.

3. Regulation 9A of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 (the General Regulations) states that PCNs must state that a Notice to Owner "may" be served. However, this PCN states that a Notice to Owner "will" be issued. This is a procedural impropriety.
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #10 on: »
Delete point 2 (which is entirely wrong), and amend point 3 to refer to The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022.

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 were abolished last year.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on August 03, 2023, 10:13:18 pm
Delete point 2 (which is entirely wrong), and amend point 3 to refer to The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022.

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 were abolished last year.

Many thanks.
I lifted point 2 from the known flaws spreadsheet (and concurrent Pepipoo thread). Is this not correct at all?
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: NotFair on August 03, 2023, 10:24:55 pm
I lifted point 2 from the known flaws spreadsheet (and concurrent Pepipoo thread). Is this not correct at all?
It's been overturned in Christopher Phipps v NEPP - Essex County Council  (IF00014-2211, 17 February 2023) and that was upheld on review in Christopher Phipps v NEPP - Essex County Council  (IF00014-2211, 24 March 2023), the point as first argued was that it's not a civil contravention at all under any Act.

I've updated the PCN spreadsheet to reflect the current position.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #13 on: »
Thanks. I submitted informal reps earlier today with TMA2004 point removed, as suggested.
Let's see how it goes.
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Re: TfL red route - largely illegible PCN (thermal paper) & known flaws?
« Reply #14 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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