Author Topic: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB (Read 1070 times)

majikd · « **on:** January 19, 2025, 07:41:03 pm »

Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - Being in a Bus Lane (Camera Enforcement) – Blackwall Lane Bus Lane NB

Outline of Case and Potential Grounds to Dispute

Date of Alleged Offence: 04/01/2025
Date of Notification: 10/01/2025
14-Day Deadline: 24/01/2025

Thank you in advance for any assistance. I am uncertain if I have valid grounds to appeal, but I would greatly appreciate your guidance.

The alleged offence occurred in a bus lane on a road I use regularly, and I believed I was familiar with the hours of operation. However, upon receiving the PCN, I discovered that the operational hours had changed back in 2023. According to the article linked in the supporting evidence section, the bus lane hours were extended, but I had not noticed this change.

Potential Grounds for Dispute:

1. Local Road User Awareness:
Is it reasonable to expect a regular local road user to check the signs every time they pass, especially on routes they frequently use? I failed to notice the time change and question how effectively this change was communicated to the public.

2. Signage Prominence:
The sign at the start of the bus lane does indicate the change in hours, but I question whether it is sufficiently prominent. The sign appears soon after a left turn and a pelican crossing, where drivers' attention would naturally be on pedestrians and other immediate hazards.

3.Driving Record:
I have never previously received a PCN, despite regularly driving the same route using the bus lane since the operational hours were extended. Is there any basis that only starting to issue PCN’s over a year later provides any grounds to dispute?

I appreciate any advice, especially on whether these grounds are reasonable or if there are additional arguments I could present.

Supporting Evidence and References:

PCN images and Council Correspondence:

Relevant News Article:

An article confirms the council extended the bus lane hours from 7am-7pm to 6am-10pm on 04/09/2023 following a TfL request. It notes that the change was publicized via lamp post notices and local press, but no objections were received.

Full Article Link

Excerpt:
“Following a request by TfL, the council changed the bus lane operation times from 7am to 7pm to 6am to 10pm to address issues with traffic and significant bus delays in the area. The council made the change after notifying people about the proposal, including advertising on public notices on nearby lamp posts and in local press. No objections were received.”

Streetview Evidence:

Location of Alleged Offence

Start of the Bus Lane

stamfordman · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2025, 08:49:22 pm »

You can never assume something is the same today as it was yesterday.

Are you saying your route was via a left turn just before the sign?

There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.

majikd · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2025, 09:15:21 pm »

Thank you for your response. I’ve addressed your points below:

Quote from: stamfordman on January 19, 2025, 08:49:22 pm

You can never assume something is the same today as it was yesterday.

A truism for many aspects of life! To clarify, does this mean it’s not a valid argument to dispute an offence like this? In other words, would the council simply argue the point you’ve made, disregarding whether it’s reasonable to expect a driver to review every signpost on every drive, even if they’re familiar with the route?

Quote

Are you saying your route was via a left turn just before the sign?

Yes, that’s correct. To clarify, my route involved a left turn immediately before the sign. This sign had an additional notice beneath it indicating that the hours of operation had changed. I believe the cameras recorded the alleged offence approximately 500m further along the bus lane. However, at that point, the signs only display the hours of operation without the additional notice about the change, which seems inconsistent.

Quote

There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood, but I’m not entirely sure what you mean here. I’d appreciate it if you could clarify or elaborate further.

stamfordman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2025, 10:45:50 pm »

It's no defence to break the speed limit if the limit sign changes so yes you do need to check parking and moving traffic signs.

The video won't show it so what was your route.

There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.

Others may chip in here - some councils haven't had official camera authorisation and some have mucked up website representation grounds but London bus lanes have an enforcement notice stage and you you're not at that.

majikd · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2025, 02:57:01 am »

Quote from: stamfordman on January 19, 2025, 10:45:50 pm

It's no defence to break the speed limit if the limit sign changes so yes you do need to check parking and moving traffic signs.

The video won't show it so what was your route.

There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera authorisation.

Others may chip in here - some councils haven't had official camera authorisation and some have mucked up website representation grounds but London bus lanes have an enforcement notice stage and you you're not at that.

thank you again. I will look into the camera authorisation point to see if I can find out.

Please find the below image, which I hope is sufficient to answer your question regarding my route. Please let me know if you require further information

Hippocrates · « **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2025, 07:49:35 pm »

They have to prove the contravention and signage. Do they?

majikd · « **Reply #6 on:** January 22, 2025, 12:27:20 am »

Quote from: Hippocrates on January 21, 2025, 07:49:35 pm

They have to prove the contravention and signage. Do they?

Thank you for your response. No they do not prove the signage on the letter or the evidence on their website. Is that grounds to dispute it therefore? I had a search on the forum and found your advice for a similar case so should I look to dispute it as follows? Should I make any reference to the fact the times of operation changed and proof of an additional sign to highlight that point? Grateful for any other suggestions as maybe I don't need the preamble. Thanking you in advance

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hackney-bus-lane-hackney-road-no-signs/15/

I am disappointed in having received this PCN for a road I use regularly and I am very familiar with as a local resident. I was unaware that this bus lane operates at this time of day seeing as its purpose is to aid thoroughfare of buses at peak hours when the Blackwall tunnel is busy and as a local resident that is certainly not the case at this time of day.

1. The video evidence does not show any signage, either warning and/or bus lane signage passed.

2. I put you to strict proof that such signs were reflectorised.

3. I out you to strict proof that there is any warning signage at all junctions before entering the said bus lane.

4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used at this location has the relevant approval from the VCA.

In light of the above, and should you not be able to address points 2-4, I request that the PCN be cancelled.

Hippocrates · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2025, 03:23:07 pm »

majikd · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2025, 02:09:01 am »

Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence

Dear Greenwich Council Team,

I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.

In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following points:

1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA).

Given the above concerns, I respectfully request the PCN be cancelled unless you are able to adequately address points 2–4.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,

Hippocrates · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2025, 10:43:04 am »

Quote from: majikd on January 26, 2025, 02:09:01 am

Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence

Dear Greenwich Council Team,

I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.

In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following points:

1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA).

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,

majikd · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2025, 12:16:14 pm »

Quote from: Hippocrates on January 26, 2025, 10:43:04 am

Quote from: majikd on January 26, 2025, 02:09:01 am
Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence

Dear Greenwich Council Team,

I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.

In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following points:

1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA).

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,

Thank you. I am afraid I had already submitted my response to the PCN. Is there anything I should be aware due to the fact I have included that text or it is for good order?

Hippocrates · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2025, 12:49:38 pm »

We just await and then submit an amended rep. v the Enforcement Notice if and when received after the rejection!

majikd · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2025, 07:04:23 pm »

Quote from: Hippocrates on January 26, 2025, 12:49:38 pm

We just await and then submit an amended rep. v the Enforcement Notice if and when received after the rejection!

Understood - thank you!

majikd · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2025, 07:41:56 pm »

Quote from: Hippocrates on January 26, 2025, 12:49:38 pm

We just await and then submit an amended rep. v the Enforcement Notice if and when received after the rejection!

Rejection received (no surprise there!) – see images below. While I suspect the response is fairly boilerplate and not uncommon for councils to overlook specific points or requests in representations, this particular reply seems even more off. It references parking and entering a bus lane too early for a turn, which doesn’t seem relevant to the alleged contravention in my case.

Could I please get advice on the next steps, if any? Should I wait for the Enforcement Notice and then formally challenge the PCN at that stage?

Hippocrates · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2025, 08:34:28 pm »

Wait for the EM.

Oops I meant EN!

I am no good at Scrabble!

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Author Topic: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB (Read 1070 times)

majikd

Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

stamfordman

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

stamfordman

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

Hippocrates

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

Hippocrates

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

Hippocrates

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

Hippocrates

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

majikd

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB

Hippocrates

Re: Royal Greenwich – PCN – 34J - being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) – Blackwall Lane bus lane NB