Author Topic: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall Avenue  (Read 164 times)

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I'd appreciate some advice on whether this is worth contesting.

The driver saw a vehicle in a nearby parking bay whose occupant had already entered the vehicle and closed the door, so it was obvious they were about to leave. The driver therefore queued behind that vehicle for approximately 20 seconds while it started up and pulled out, then immediately parked in the now-vacant bay.

During that time, the passenger exited the vehicle safely. The driver remained in the vehicle throughout and never left it.

The CCTV footage does show the other driver getting into their vehicle and closing the door before driving away, which supports the explanation that the vehicle was simply waiting for the parking space to become available. However, the CCTV does not show the full 20-second sequence before the space became free, so it does not provide the complete context.

My questions are:

  • Does the fact that the CCTV does not show the full sequence of events provide any grounds for challenge?
  • Is there any argument that the vehicle was only momentarily stationary while waiting for an imminently available parking space, rather than stopping for the purposes of the bus stop restriction?
  • or any technical/PCN wording mistake related grounds to contest this ?

I'd be grateful for any opinions before deciding whether to pay at the discounted rate or make formal representations.

PCN









Council evidence




Council Video





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« Last Edit: June 25, 2026, 03:18:40 pm by flash2005 »

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Waiting for a space to clear for that length of time won't win I think.

We can check the PCN.

----------

Case reference   2250627073
Appellant   Clare McCartney
Authority   London Borough of Redbridge
VRM   BB13 MAC
   
PCN Details
PCN   AF58339812
Contravention date   12 Oct 2025
Contravention time   12:08:00
Contravention location   George Lane
Penalty amount   GBP 160.00
Contravention   Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
   
Referral date   -
   
Decision Date   29 Apr 2026
Adjudicator   Sean Stanton-Dunne
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons   Ms McCartney was scheduled for a personal hearing by video link today, but she has not attended and so the appeal is being decided on the evidence presented.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted bus stop.
I have looked at the CCTV footage and the library images submitted by the Council. The footage lasts a matter of seconds. It shows Ms McCartney’s car stopping, the reverse lights being engaged and the vehicle then starting to reverse. The footage clearly supports Ms McCartney’s evidence that she was reversing into the vacant loading bay and I accept her evidence. It is unclear as to why the Council stopped the footage without showing the completion of the manoeuvre. In my judgement, a vehicle engaged in a manoeuvre cannot be regarded as being “stopped” for the purposes of a no stopping contravention. I would take an entirely different view if the vehicle was stopped waiting for a parking place to clear but this was stopping as part of the manoeuvre.
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The first thing to say is that Redbridge will reject your reps, as the video shows a contravention, and they like to have the money as well, even if just the discount amount. So you'd have to take them to London Tribunals, and I have to say I don't think the odds are good, but wait and see what the others say.

Of course the PCN, and also the relevant Redbridge web pages may show serious errors which could be used for a technical appeal on the basis of a procedural impropriety, as the PCN is under the Traffic Managment Act 2004, where this is a statutory appeal ground. Such appeals have no connection to the actual contravention.
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There MUST be a yellow no stopping plate. There isn't.
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

The GSV link posted by the OP shows that the No Stopping sign is present, it's just not in view. It's on the lamp column at the beginning of the marked area

Here is a draft of my appeal,  Please let me know if there is any feedback.

Dear Sir or Madam,
I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and I make the following formal representations against the above Penalty Charge Notice on the statutory ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. I do not admit the contravention and, without prejudice to that position, I also rely on the further matters set out below.
Background – the circumstances of the stop
1.   The vehicle was in the process of parking. The driver had identified a vehicle in a marked parking bay immediately ahead whose occupant had already entered that vehicle and closed the door, such that it was evident the bay was about to become vacant. The driver drew up behind that vehicle and waited, for approximately twenty seconds, while the vehicle ahead started its engine and manoeuvred out of the bay into the carriageway. The moment the bay was vacated, the driver parked in it and the vehicle was clear of the bus stop area.
2.   While the vehicle ahead was pulling out of the bay and into the live carriageway, it would have been unsafe and impracticable for the driver to proceed: the vehicle ahead was moving across the driver's path, and overtaking a vehicle mid-manoeuvre on its offside into oncoming traffic would have created an obvious risk of collision. In those moments the vehicle was, in substance, prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver's control. I refer the Council to Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 4(2)(b) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, which expressly excepts “a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property”.
3.   The stop was momentary and incidental to a lawful parking manoeuvre. The vehicle was not parked, was not left unattended, the driver remained at the controls throughout, and the vehicle moved off and into the bay as soon as the bay was clear. No bus was present at, approaching, or in any way impeded from using the stop during this brief period.
Signage and marking of the alleged restriction
4.   There is no upright “no stopping” sign (diagram 974 or similar) at or serving this bus stop on Clayhall Avenue. The Council is put to strict proof that a bus stop clearway restriction was lawfully in force and properly indicated at the material time, and in particular to confirm:
(a)   whether the restriction relied upon is a 24-hour bus stop clearway or one operative only during specified times. If the restriction is time-limited, an upright sign indicating the operational times is required for the restriction to be adequately conveyed to drivers, and none is present;
(b)   that the road marking relied upon conformed in all respects to diagram 1025.1 of the TSRGD 2016 (including the required broad continuous yellow line) and was complete, unobscured and in a good state of repair at the material time. The Council is requested to provide contemporaneous photographs of the markings and any signage, together with details of the last site inspection;
(c)   the legal basis of the restriction (statutory provision and, if applicable, any order) under which contravention 47j is enforced at this location.
5.   I further refer the Council to paragraph 13.24.9 of the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 (Regulatory Signs), which contemplates that upright signing accompanies bus stop clearway markings and states, in terms, that where a time period applies “it will be helpful to drivers if the sign does face oncoming traffic”. In the absence of any upright plate whatsoever, a driver momentarily halted in the course of a parking manoeuvre had no adequate indication of the extent or operative hours of any restriction.
The CCTV evidence
6.   The still images served with the PCN show only a short excerpt and do not capture the full sequence of events, in particular the period during which the occupant of the vehicle in the parking bay entered that vehicle, closed the door, started up and manoeuvred out, nor my vehicle subsequently parking in the vacated bay. I formally request disclosure of the full, unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341 covering the period from at least two minutes before to two minutes after the alleged contravention. I am advised that the footage the Council holds does show the other vehicle's driver entering their vehicle and closing the door before driving away, which corroborates the account above.
Proportionality
7.   Even if, which is not admitted, a technical contravention is made out, a stop of approximately twenty seconds in the course of taking up an adjacent parking bay, with no bus present or impeded, is de minimis. Enforcement in these circumstances serves no traffic management purpose, and I invite the Council to exercise its discretion to cancel the PCN in any event, as your own Notice indicates you will do where there are suitable mitigating circumstances.
Conclusion
For the reasons above, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN should be cancelled. If the Council rejects these representations, please provide with the Notice of Rejection: (i) the full unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341; (ii) site photographs of all signs and markings at the Clayhall Avenue bus stop; and (iii) confirmation of the operative hours and legal basis of the restriction, so that the matter may be pursued before the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators at London Tribunals, where an application for costs will be considered if the Council's conduct is found to have been wholly unreasonable.

The GSV link posted by the OP shows that the No Stopping sign is present, it's just not in view. It's on the lamp column at the beginning of the marked area
So wnat?
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Here is a draft of my appeal,  Please let me know if there is any feedback.

Dear Sir or Madam,
I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and I make the following formal representations against the above Penalty Charge Notice on the statutory ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. I do not admit the contravention and, without prejudice to that position, I also rely on the further matters set out below.
Background – the circumstances of the stop
1. The vehicle was in the process of parking. The driver had identified a vehicle in a marked parking bay immediately ahead whose occupant had already entered that vehicle and closed the door, such that it was evident the bay was about to become vacant. The driver drew up behind that vehicle and waited, for approximately twenty seconds, while the vehicle ahead started its engine and manoeuvred out of the bay into the carriageway. The moment the bay was vacated, the driver parked in it and the vehicle was clear of the bus stop area.
2. While the vehicle ahead was pulling out of the bay and into the live carriageway, it would have been unsafe and impracticable for the driver to proceed: the vehicle ahead was moving across the driver's path, and overtaking a vehicle mid-manoeuvre on its offside into oncoming traffic would have created an obvious risk of collision. In those moments the vehicle was, in substance, prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver's control. I refer the Council to Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 4(2)(b) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, which expressly excepts “a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property”.
3. The stop was momentary and incidental to a lawful parking manoeuvre. The vehicle was not parked, was not left unattended, the driver remained at the controls throughout, and the vehicle moved off and into the bay as soon as the bay was clear. No bus was present at, approaching, or in any way impeded from using the stop during this brief period.
Signage and marking of the alleged restriction
4. There is no upright “no stopping” sign (diagram 974 or similar) at or serving this bus stop on Clayhall Avenue. The Council is put to strict proof that a bus stop clearway restriction was lawfully in force and properly indicated at the material time, and in particular to confirm:
(a) whether the restriction relied upon is a 24-hour bus stop clearway or one operative only during specified times. If the restriction is time-limited, an upright sign indicating the operational times is required for the restriction to be adequately conveyed to drivers, and none is present;
(b) that the road marking relied upon conformed in all respects to diagram 1025.1 of the TSRGD 2016 (including the required broad continuous yellow line) and was complete, unobscured and in a good state of repair at the material time. The Council is requested to provide contemporaneous photographs of the markings and any signage, together with details of the last site inspection;
(c) the legal basis of the restriction (statutory provision and, if applicable, any order) under which contravention 47j is enforced at this location.
5. I further refer the Council to paragraph 13.24.9 of the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3 (Regulatory Signs), which contemplates that upright signing accompanies bus stop clearway markings and states, in terms, that where a time period applies “it will be helpful to drivers if the sign does face oncoming traffic”. In the absence of any upright plate whatsoever, a driver momentarily halted in the course of a parking manoeuvre had no adequate indication of the extent or operative hours of any restriction.
The CCTV evidence
6. The still images served with the PCN show only a short excerpt and do not capture the full sequence of events, in particular the period during which the occupant of the vehicle in the parking bay entered that vehicle, closed the door, started up and manoeuvred out, nor my vehicle subsequently parking in the vacated bay. I formally request disclosure of the full, unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341 covering the period from at least two minutes before to two minutes after the alleged contravention. I am advised that the footage the Council holds does show the other vehicle's driver entering their vehicle and closing the door before driving away, which corroborates the account above.
Proportionality
7. Even if, which is not admitted, a technical contravention is made out, a stop of approximately twenty seconds in the course of taking up an adjacent parking bay, with no bus present or impeded, is de minimis. Enforcement in these circumstances serves no traffic management purpose, and I invite the Council to exercise its discretion to cancel the PCN in any event, as your own Notice indicates you will do where there are suitable mitigating circumstances.
Conclusion
For the reasons above, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN should be cancelled. If the Council rejects these representations, please provide with the Notice of Rejection: (i) the full unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341; (ii) site photographs of all signs and markings at the Clayhall Avenue bus stop; and (iii) confirmation of the operative hours and legal basis of the restriction, so that the matter may be pursued before the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators at London Tribunals, where an application for costs will be considered if the Council's conduct is found to have been wholly unreasonable.

Far too long and admitting and threatening. Just this: I put you to strict proof that this bus stop is legally signed. If you are unable to do so, please cancel the PCN.

Your draft gives them too many opportunities and also provides them with answers. A killer question is short and to the point. If they do not reply to all of them the Halton High Court kicks in.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2026, 12:21:09 am by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Here is the revised letter.  Given the signage is there (albeit a bit small), should point 1 still be included ?



Dear Sir or Madam,
I make representations against this PCN on the statutory ground that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The bus stop at this location is not signed with any upright “no stopping” plate. I put the Council to strict proof that the restriction was lawfully in place and properly indicated at the material time. Please provide:
1.   evidence of the upright signage at this bus stop as at 16 June 2026;
2.   contemporaneous photographs showing that the road marking conformed to diagram 1025.1 of the TSRGD 2016 and was complete, unobscured and in good repair;
3.   the operative hours of the restriction and the legal basis on which contravention 47j is enforced at this location; and
4.   the full, unedited CCTV footage from camera 3341.
If the Council is unable to evidence each of the above, please cancel the PCN. I require each point raised in these representations to be addressed in any Notice of Rejection.
Yours faithfully,

Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall Avenue
« Reply #10 on: »
You cannot require them to consider each point: HALTON CASE.


https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/303.pdf

@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall Avenue
« Reply #11 on: »
You cannot require them to consider each point: HALTON CASE.


https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/303.pdf

I have reworded the appeal slightly

DRAFT BELOW

I make representations on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. The vehicle waited for approximately twenty seconds while the vehicle ahead manoeuvred out of the adjacent parking bay across its path, and parked in that bay the moment it was clear; it was prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control (Schedule 7, Part 6, paragraph 4(2)(b), TSRGD 2016). No bus was present or impeded.
The burden is on the Council to establish the contravention. There must be a yellow stopping plate, but there isn’t. The stills served do not show the signage relied upon or the full extent of the clearway marking; please provide that evidence, together with the full, unedited footage from camera 3341 covering two minutes either side of the alleged contravention.
Alternatively, given the momentary and harmless nature of the halt, I ask the Council to exercise the discretion referred to on the face of the Notice and cancel the PCN.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2026, 11:31:58 am by flash2005 »

Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall Avenue
« Reply #12 on: »
The first thing to say is that Redbridge will reject your reps, as the video shows a contravention, and they like to have the money as well, even if just the discount amount. So you'd have to take them to London Tribunals, and I have to say I don't think the odds are good, but wait and see what the others say.

Of course the PCN, and also the relevant Redbridge web pages may show serious errors which could be used for a technical appeal on the basis of a procedural impropriety, as the PCN is under the Traffic Managment Act 2004, where this is a statutory appeal ground. Such appeals have no connection to the actual contravention.
Are there any serious errors remaining in the PCN ?  I can see one of the previous ones has been fixed from the PCN
« Last Edit: July 07, 2026, 11:32:27 am by flash2005 »

Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall Avenue
« Reply #13 on: »
After further discussions with @Hippocrates, here is the final simplified version of the appeal

"I put you to strict proof that this bus stop is legally signed. If you are unable to do so, please cancel the PCN."
« Last Edit: July 07, 2026, 02:01:53 pm by flash2005 »

Re: Redbridge, code 47j stopped on a restricted bus stop, Clayhall Avenue
« Reply #14 on: »
I put you to strict proof that this bus stop is legally signed. If you are unable to do so, please cancel the PCN.
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
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