Author Topic: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign  (Read 2554 times)

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Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #30 on: »
Got the date. Do you want representation?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2025, 05:41:04 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

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Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #31 on: »
7th January 2026 at 14:00

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #32 on: »
Yes just read it. They have removed all the plates now which is a strong point.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #33 on: »
Yes just read it. They have removed all the plates now which is a strong point.
  Not round the corner from me they haven't.  And on some of these signs, the blue matching tape/film which was used to cover up "term-time only" has mysteriously disappeared, exposing and displaying the phrase once again.


I've just skimmed the Evidence Pack and (unless I've missed it), whilst LBR rely upon and refer to it explicitly in the 1st paragraph on pg6, the TMO itself makes no reference to the term "Term-Time only" or its related sign.  Why the sign then? As it only leads to confusion as term-time is not 24/7, 365 days of the year, which the TMO implies.

The TMO also makes numerous reference to Column 5 of the Schedule.....which doesn't exist??
« Last Edit: December 05, 2025, 07:25:11 pm by NTIAEP »

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #34 on: »
I've just skimmed the Evidence Pack

Has this been posted?

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #35 on: »
I've just skimmed the Evidence Pack

Has this been posted?

Post #29

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #36 on: »
Thanks.

OP, I cannot find the following in the evidence:

Support for the statements in para.1 of page 3 of the Council's Summary e.g. DfT guidance etc.

The part of the TMO which refers to 'traffic signs'.

For others, I cannot find the cited ETA decisions in para. 2, have they been referenced correctly?

For what it's worth, as regards the contravention IMO the issues for the adjudicator are:

1.What does the Traffic Management Order provide;
2.Is this conveyed adequately by traffic signs to meet the legal test i.e. as a minimum LATOR?

1. An all-year round restriction as set out in col. 4 of item 1 of the Schedule to the TMO. There is NO legal authority for 'term-time' only within the order.

2. The signs comprise an unspecified advance warning sign and at the entrance to the restricted area a prescribed traffic sign together with 'colourful on-street information signs that are designed to catch the eye of ... drivers.'

The 'colourful signs' are therefore considered by the council to form part of the regulatory signage at this point. However, the signs in combination do not convey the legal position which is, according to the TMO, a 365-day restriction.
Self-evidently, the council has failed to meet the LATOR test.

The council appears to want matters both ways: to have a TMO which is made by a formal process of corporate council decision-making and consultation which is then varied at a whim by departmental officers who ignore its provisions by failing to enforce as required.

If 'procedural impropriety' was a ground of appeal, I'd include it.




 


Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #37 on: »
Thanks.

OP, I cannot find the following in the evidence:

Support for the statements in para.1 of page 3 of the Council's Summary e.g. DfT guidance etc.

The part of the TMO which refers to 'traffic signs'.

For others, I cannot find the cited ETA decisions in para. 2, have they been referenced correctly?

For what it's worth, as regards the contravention IMO the issues for the adjudicator are:

1.What does the Traffic Management Order provide;
2.Is this conveyed adequately by traffic signs to meet the legal test i.e. as a minimum LATOR?

1. An all-year round restriction as set out in col. 4 of item 1 of the Schedule to the TMO. There is NO legal authority for 'term-time' only within the order.

2. The signs comprise an unspecified advance warning sign and at the entrance to the restricted area a prescribed traffic sign together with 'colourful on-street information signs that are designed to catch the eye of ... drivers.'

The 'colourful signs' are therefore considered by the council to form part of the regulatory signage at this point. However, the signs in combination do not convey the legal position which is, according to the TMO, a 365-day restriction.
Self-evidently, the council has failed to meet the LATOR test.

The council appears to want matters both ways: to have a TMO which is made by a formal process of corporate council decision-making and consultation which is then varied at a whim by departmental officers who ignore its provisions by failing to enforce as required.

If 'procedural impropriety' was a ground of appeal, I'd include it.

@H C Andersen
I've just gone through the evidence pack (hard copy) again, and there are only 13 pages (26 sides) - are you saying some of the evidence is missing?

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #38 on: »
Got the date. Do you want representation?

@Hippocrates
Yes please :)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2025, 06:08:00 pm by bigred247 »

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #39 on: »
Yes just read it. They have removed all the plates now which is a strong point.
  Not round the corner from me they haven't.  And on some of these signs, the blue matching tape/film which was used to cover up "term-time only" has mysteriously disappeared, exposing and displaying the phrase once again.


I've just skimmed the Evidence Pack and (unless I've missed it), whilst LBR rely upon and refer to it explicitly in the 1st paragraph on pg6, the TMO itself makes no reference to the term "Term-Time only" or its related sign.  Why the sign then? As it only leads to confusion as term-time is not 24/7, 365 days of the year, which the TMO implies.

The TMO also makes numerous reference to Column 5 of the Schedule.....which doesn't exist??

Is this more missing evidence? What is the best approach in getting hold of any missing/referenced evidence?

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #40 on: »
The Case Summary is presented to the adjudicator. In itself it does not form evidence but refers to evidence e.g. the signs, your reps, CCTV of your car passing the signs etc.

IMO, anything which is included should, if intended to be material, exist as evidence.

So, where is the DfT guidance on School Streets which the council implemented?

'The use of conditional expressions such as 'Term time only' has been accepted by the Department of Transport for these schemes.' So where is it?

IMO, in both cases if it's not in evidence then it doesn't exist.

I would write back to Parking and Traffic Enforcement.

Sir,
PCN *********; Case No. ********

Thank you for a copy of the evidence you have submitted to the adjudicator in respect of the above appeal. I thank you for providing this at such an early stage because it gives me time to consider this in detail and for the authority to provide what appear to be missing items of evidence.

My request refers to the extracts from the Traffic Management Order and to your Case Summary.

TMO
1. Please provide me with the relevant provision within the TMO or any principal order which applies as regards 'traffic signs';
2. Please provide the relevant provision within this order or any principal order which applies to the effect that the prohibition may be varied summarily by officers of the Enforcement Authority or by any other means.

Case Summary
I refer to page 3:

Para. 1: Please provide the document(s) e.g. guidance etc. which form the basis of the council's assertion that:
'the use of conditional expressions such as 'term time only' has been accepted by the Department for Transport for these schemes';

'the signage in question..follows DfT guidance on School Streets'.

Para. 2
I cannot find the referenced appeal cases on the ETA database, have you quoted the correct numbers? I should be permitted to examine these as the authority wish the adjudicator to have regard to their reasoning and conclusion that 'this shows that adjudicators have upheld enforcement under similar wording when the signage meets statutory requirements'. At present, I cannot see how this statement helps the authority because one of the key issues at large and to be determined is whether in fact the council's signage does in fact meet statutory requirements.

Yours,
« Last Edit: December 06, 2025, 02:47:48 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #41 on: »
@H C Andersen
Thanks for this. Do you know the best contact email address for Redbridge? They sent the evidence pack by post.

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #42 on: »
@H C Andersen
Thanks for this. Do you know the best contact email address for Redbridge? They sent the evidence pack by post.
parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk
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Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #43 on: »
I've just sent the email to Redbridge council and will keep you folks posted.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2025, 08:12:29 pm by bigred247 »

Re: Redbridge - 53J - term time only sign
« Reply #44 on: »
Why are you contacting the council?
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r