3. PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
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Author Topic: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays  (Read 2626 times)

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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #15 on: »
Thanks again for your help here.

No, I think it was from a smoothie my sister had made me at hers a few hours earlier. She put spirulina powder in it, and it caused me to have projectile vomiting, which I didn't know was a thing, but apparently people can be violently allergic to it.

I challenged the pcn through Harrow Councils online portal and sorry, I didn't take a screenshot of what I wrote. At that time I was unaware of any signage at all, and I wrote that the notice is invalid without any signs. It was only after my neighbour mentioned the signs much further down, that I knew of them. I mentioned having walked for at least 80m and could see not a single sign on either side of the road. I also mentioned the signpost without a sign.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 05:51:30 pm by Miffed »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #16 on: »
May have helped if you'd said you are a local resident. I'll check the tribunal for any cases here.
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #17 on: »
I'm sure the council will reject which means you will have to make a formal representation once you get the notice to owner, please don't submit formal representations without putting a draft on here first.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #18 on: »
Only one case I can see. Apparently the forum software thinks the **** is. rude word - it's actually ********.

-------------

2240008938
Green Lane
Decision Date 19 Feb 2024

I was able to conduct the hearing of this case by telephone on 19 February.
The Council did not participate in the call I made to the appellant. The appellant car had been ticketed on the first day of several when re-painting nearby tenanted premises where the landlord had used his frequently (between tenancies for example). In support of his case I heard from another tradesman Mr Grainger as a witness. He had been on the same site and had attracted a similar ticket which had been challenged but not yet reached tribunal stage.
Since the appellant had last been to where recorded the Council had introduced new parking restrictions enabling permit holders to park within the zone, but restricting parking by others.
It had not painted bays in connection with these new restrictions. It relied on a pair of signs erected at the only point where cars could be driven in to the permit zone.
The officer issuing the PCN was thus not at fault in his decision to ticket.
The appellant argued that the pair of signs indicating the permit requirement beyond them was unfair and very easily missed.
I have accepted the appellant failed to see the new signs but this resulted from the confidence he had about free parking, confidence developed from long but intermittent use. Crucially I did not accept his argument about inadequate signage. This signage was in my finding legally sufficient to put drivers on notice of the permit requirement. This sort of signage arrangement is now lawful without painted bays or the еrection of additional signs having passed zone boundary. Such arrangements are no longer scarce but increasingly found.
I have decided the contravention occurred and I must thus record this appeal as refused.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 02:11:42 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #19 on: »
So the success of any appeal does not look likely. My position is similar to the appellant, in that I rarely use the road, and have possibly parked there only 3 times in 4 years. Without knowing about the change (no other changes have been enacted in the neighbourhood) it's not difficult to make the presumption that all was as before.

So, unless there's an error in the parking order, it looks like pursuing an appeal is a waste of time.

I still find it cynical that they're allowed to say it's legal without any notifications near to where the parking is to take place.
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: Miffed on January 01, 2025, 05:04:05 pm
So, unless there's an error in the parking order, it looks like pursuing an appeal is a waste of time.

There might also be an issue in Harrow's enforcement process, most appeals are won on technical grounds of this sort.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #21 on: »
Once again, I'm grateful for all the input and the different people weighing in.
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #22 on: »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #23 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #24 on: »
Hello again,

Does that order look to be faulty in any way? I'm completely surprised to see it's been in effect since 2022,and I'm certain I will have parked there since then, again, unaware of this change.

I've just received the notice rejecting my appeal, which was expected.



« Last Edit: February 22, 2025, 06:14:11 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #25 on: »
From what I can see, you were parked within a parking place defined by item 3 in Table 1. The order seems to cover each of the parking place areas although the residents of 101 to 107 might be surprised to know that GL permit holders could park by their dropped footways.

Technically the contravention alleged in your case is incorrect. The order allows a range of permit holders to park, not just GL residents permit holders. But on its own I doubt this would persuade an adjudicator, see what others post.

Their response to your reps is numerically illiterate as it states that they could serve a NTO when the discount is still available..

'[pay £55]within 14 days of' 3 Jan is 17th....

whereas '[pay £110] within 28 days of date of PCN' is 15th at which time they could serve a NTO demanding £110 from the owner despite £55 being the penalty until 17th.

But again this is unlikely to win on its on.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2025, 03:01:23 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #26 on: »
As long as you challenge the NTO within 14 days of the date of issue the discount is normally reoffered anyway upon rejection, so there's limited risk in carrying on.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #27 on: »
Hello again,

Given that the previous appeal posted here did fail, and the challenge I've made against the pcn was rejected for a similar reason is it worth going further, if they're already minded to reject?

Is there any faulty element of either the traffic order or the pcn? And if not, should I just give in?
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #28 on: »
OP, probably as many appeals to the adjudicator are won on procedural grounds arising from a Notice of Rejection of formal representations as are won on more standard issues e.g. contravention did not occur, inadequate signage etc.

But you don't have a NOR and won't get one unless you make formal reps against a NTO and cp suggests this could be financially risk-free as regards your current situation i.e. discount being re-offered.

Which would seem to lead to ...make formal reps within 14 days beginning on date of service of a NTO.
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #29 on: »
@Miffed the council always rejects everything, that's not really the point. Once you appeal to the tribunal it's no longer up to them, and the odds are in your favour: probably a third of appeals are not resisted by authorities, a third are won and a third are lost, so you have a 2 in 3 chance of a positive outcome even if you didn't have any assistance from anyone.

On top of that, motorists who are represented by one of us regularly win in 90%+ of cases. If the Notice of Rejection turns out to be procedurally defective, you could have a winning appeal no matter what the signage situation is.

So frankly it would be a bit silly to give in and pay now.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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