Author Topic: PCN whilst broken down: appeal rejected b/c no VAT number despite photos of recovery supplied  (Read 2053 times)

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Hi there,

I received a PCN from a London borough whilst parked in a residents-only permit bay. I had pushed the car there after having broken down whilst stationary in traffic on the same road.

When I was recovered, I took many photos of the process (car being loaded on, car once loaded on - all at the location of the PCN).

I submitted these along with with the informal appeal against the PCN, and the appeal was rejected. The rejection said that I needed to provide an invoice from the recovery agent.

So, I responded to the request and attached the invoice from the recovery guy. This was then rejected because it did not include a VAT registration number. I think the recovery agent probably isn't VAT registered.

Nonetheless, the photos quite clearly show that the car was broken down to the extent that it needed a recovery vehicle to move it. I don't understand why the VAT registration of the person driving the recovery vehicle is of any relevance to proving that. Surely, if my brother owned a recovery vehicle, I'd be entitled to ask him to help me, and that wouldn't generate an invoice of any kind?

The question is, is it worth me taking this forward once I receive the NtO?

Will this really get held up in the council's favour simply because the recovery guy wasn't VAT registered, even though the photo evidence makes it pretty clear that the car was recovered?

After all, this is a PCN appeal not an HMRC investigation...

(FWIW no work was carried out on the car in the end because it was possible to get it started by refitting a part that had been knocked out of place, so there's no invoice from a garage.)

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I too can't see how VAT is relevant.

However, I also find it difficult to believe that anyone could operate a recovery business without needing to be registered.

I also find that hard to believe, but it is what it is, and there's nothing I can do about that.

The question is whether the photos of the car going onto the recovery truck are proof enough that the car broke down and needed to be recovered.

Is it absolutely necessary that this be proved also with a VAT-registered invoice? Or will the council likely back down before the tribunal, based on the photo evidence?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2024, 03:30:35 pm by dion_dublin_fan »


Thanks, I read all of that.

There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from posting them. The location of the offence is of no relevance.

The PCN was issued in good faith - the car was left in a permit-only bay and had no permit. I'm not disputing that.

The question arises because the council say they will allow an appeal if the car had broken down. The car had broken down, and they have seen photos of it being towed. They have also seen an invoice for it being towed. Yet, they deny the appeal on the basis of a lack of VAT registration on the part of the towing agent.

The question is, will my evidence be seen more favourably at tribunal than at informal appeal?

I'm not looking to pick holes in the correspondence or any other part of the appeal process. Opinions on the question of how the tribunal will view the photo + non-VAT invoice are what I am hoping to seek.

The council are being their usual stupid self. The contravention is stopping where prohibited, with an exemption for vehicles unable to proceed such as broken down.  There is no requirement at all that the PCN recipient has to prove anything other than that the vehicle had to be recovered. The photos and invoice prove that. The adjudicator decides using the civil law test of "on the balance of probabilities". Have you got any invoice for repairs or receipts for parts if you DIYed the car repairs ?

I'm not going to comment without seeing the rejection letter and invoice except to say there is a formal notice to owner stage next before tribunal where they often reconsider.

I'm not going to comment without seeing the rejection letter and invoice except to say there is a formal notice to owner stage next before tribunal where they often reconsider.

The text of the three letters received from the council, in order from oldest to most recent, are as follows:

1. This first response followed the initial appeal, in which I described the situation, included specific times relating to the sequence of events in the breakdown, and included several photos showing the car being loaded and secured onto a recovery vehicle, visibly at the location of the PCN's issue.

"Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a residents’ parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge.

Having reviewed your correspondence and the evidence available to myself, whilst I appreciate that the vehicle may have broken down, please be advised, we would require documentation in support of your appeal, before we make an informed decision. This should take the form of a breakdown report, or towing invoice, containing the date, time and location of the breakdown or recovery. It may also be an invoice from a garage who completed the works that were required or an invoice for the part, parts or labour that was required.

Please note, providing this evidence will assist in a decision being made but it should be noted that this does not guarantee the PCN will be cancelled. Failure to provide the evidence, could result in the PCN being upheld."

2. This second response followed me uploading the invoice from the recovery agent as requested - the response is correct in pointing out that there is not a VAT registration or address, although there is an email address for the recovery agent.

"Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a residents’ parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge.

Having reviewed your correspondence and the evidence available, whilst I appreciate the invoice you have provided, please note that we are unable to accept this. Please be advised, as the documentation does not contain a company VAT number or a company address, I am unable to ascertain the validity of the invoice, therefore we would be looking at upholding this PCN.

Leaving a vehicle unattended for a period of time without a valid permit to park effectively renders the vehicle parked in contravention and a Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) may issue a PCN.

It remains the driver's responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is parked legally at all times.

With that being said, we would have to inform you, the circumstances described do not warrant the cancellation of the PCN, and your appeal has been rejected at this stage.

Please see the below images as taken by the CEO whilst issuing the PCN:
[ the same photos as originally included with the PCN are repeated in the body of the letter, showing the car in the bay from front and back, and the bay's 'Resident permit holders only' sign ]"


3. This third letter came after I responded and questioned why the VAT registration of the recovery agent was of relevance to demonstrating whether or not I had broken down:

"Thank you for contacting us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a residents’ parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge.

Having reviewed your most recent correspondence and the evidence available to myself, whilst I appreciate you may be disappointed with our decision, please be advised, should you wish to contest the matter further, I would have to advise to please await the Notice to Owner to arrive via post. Please do not respond to this correspondence as it will only delay the appeals process.

The Notice to Owner will establish liability for the PCN and the grounds under which representations may be made. If representations are made at this stage and they are rejected, there will be the right of appeal to an independent Environment and Traffic Adjudicator. We have now let the case off hold to allow it to progress to the next stage.

Further correspondence may not be responded to."

The invoice is as the council describes - it does not have an address or a VAT registration number. It has the company name, an email address, an invoice number, and in the description of the service provided, it states my vehicle reg number, the location it was recovered from (road and postcode), and the location it was recovered to (road and postcode), the date, the price, and that it was paid.

The photos I attached to the initial appeal showed (i) the car loaded onto the recovery truck, taken from in front of the recovery truck facing backwards, with the bays in which the PCN offence occurred clearly visible in the background; (ii) the car loaded onto the truck, with the photo taken from the opposite angle, with my car's reg plate clearly visible; (iii) the car parked up outside the garage having been recovered to there; (iv) the car up on a ramp at the garage.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure (iii) or (iv) are particularly convincing evidence on their own - since I don't have an invoice from the garage (since no work was actually carried out), these could, I guess, have been taken at any time in the past. So I don't think they come into play going forward, realistically - it wouldn't be worth labouring that. In any case, we're not trying to prove that my car got fixed here, we're trying to prove that it was broken down in the first place, hence why I couldn't move it from the bay and got a PCN.

The council are being their usual stupid self. The contravention is stopping where prohibited, with an exemption for vehicles unable to proceed such as broken down.  There is no requirement at all that the PCN recipient has to prove anything other than that the vehicle had to be recovered. The photos and invoice prove that. The adjudicator decides using the civil law test of "on the balance of probabilities". Have you got any invoice for repairs or receipts for parts if you DIYed the car repairs ?

Thanks, I had thought this - that they're thinking they might as well push me along as far as they can, in the hope they get a free £80 out of me.

Balance of probabilities sounds like it would reasonably favour me. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I don't have any invoice for repairs/parts unfortunately - without going into too much detail, it's a 25 year old car and the workaround required a bit of scrap metal secured against the bulkhead to get it going again!

OK.  The only problem is that to get an unbiased judgement, you'd have to take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play; are you up for this ?  The letters you have received so far are the usual Fob-Off letters we see so often. These are sent out in response to informal representations.  If you decide to fight them, you must wait for the Notice to Owner, and submit the same reps, but updated with our help. Reps against an NtO are usually considered more carefully than informal reps so they may decide to cancel at that stage.

Thanks, I read all of that.

There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from posting them.
so you read the rules decided to ignore them and then had to post the entire contents of the letter.  ::)

the council state the recovery invoice you supplied has no business address on it. is that correct?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2024, 11:24:18 pm by mickR »
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man


the council state the recovery invoice you supplied has no business address on it. is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

To be clear - the question here is about proving the car was broken down, and whether the stages beyond NtO are likely to be as anal on VAT registration and invoice address as the responses to informal appeals have been, as opposed to engaging in a good faith assessment with the evidence of the car's ability to be driven or not.

OK.  The only problem is that to get an unbiased judgement, you'd have to take them to London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play; are you up for this ?  The letters you have received so far are the usual Fob-Off letters we see so often. These are sent out in response to informal representations.  If you decide to fight them, you must wait for the Notice to Owner, and submit the same reps, but updated with our help. Reps against an NtO are usually considered more carefully than informal reps so they may decide to cancel at that stage.

My reason for posting here was to get a sense of whether going to tribunal was likely to work out in my favour. If it seems it probably would, then I'm more than happy to. But if people have experience of the tribunal taking a similarly petty approach to this as the fob-off responses to the informal appeals, then I'll not bother.

But, in my mind, the evidence of the car being broken down and needing recovery is fairly clear.

The question seems to be around the recovery agent's tax business, which I don't intend to dispute, and am also not convinced is much proof either way. For example, if I had a friend with a recovery truck, I could easily have got them to recover the car for me as a favour. There would be no invoice whatsoever in that case, but there would still be date-stamped photo evidence of the recovery having been necessary.

If a tribunal is also going to be hung up on VAT registration, then it's probably a case of a complaint to a local councillor instead of pursuing the tribunal.

I really don't see how the VAT status of a business is of any relevance as far as a Tribunal is concerned.
A garage with a recovery capability could simply be a sole trader with no company or VAT registration, but still a legally bona fide business.
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man
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There's no issue in the phrasing or any of the documents or in the issuance of the PCN, so don't see what's to gain from posting them. The location of the offence is of no relevance.

The question arises because the council say they will allow an appeal if the car had broken down. The car had broken down, and they have seen photos of it being towed. They have also seen an invoice for it being towed. Yet, they deny the appeal on the basis of a lack of VAT registration on the part of the towing agent.

The question is, will my evidence be seen more favourably at tribunal than at informal appeal?
But you haven't shown us anything at all? Or even mentioned what council is involved.

We can't comment on what an adjudicator would think of something we haven't seen.