Author Topic: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received  (Read 519 times)

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Hi all,

I intend to make representations to Southwark via their online form as follows:



" Dear Southwark Council,

I am challenging PCN X on two grounds: (1) inadequate signage, and (2) collateral challenge.

(1) The signage is inadequate. As your video footage shows, I made a left turn from Burbage Road into Turney Road.  There are no signs on Burbage road advising that a left turn is restricted.  Note that the lines of the junction are dotted, so the driver should not be expected to stop, in which case he or she might notice the signs on Turney Road.  The signs are positioned immediately after the left turn.  However, once the turn is made, there is insufficient time for the driver to notice the sign, read the contents, recall the time, determine that the restriction applies, and take evasive action.

(2) The PCN is invalid.  The statement under the picture on the PCN says “If full payment has not been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be issued increasing the amount outstanding by 50% to £240.00”. However, the regulations require that a Charge Certificate may only be made after the date of service (paras. 5(1) and (2)(a) ).  The date of service must fall after the date of notice.  Therefore the PCN makes a false statement in respect of the timescales for issuing a Charge Certificate.  In light of this collateral challenge, the PCN is invalid.

Thank you for your consideration."



Questions:
- Has challenge (2) been successful?  One would have thought Southwark would have amended wording by not, if so.
- Any other comments on the challenge?

Thanks

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Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #1 on: »


Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #2 on: »
Please post a GSV link to the location, and tell us what street you approached on.


Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #4 on: »
So you didn't notice this advance sign ?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/pzZ9cAkdfjWYmYMA7

Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #5 on: »
I did not - neither at the time nor since.

Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #6 on: »
I did not - neither at the time nor since.
The presence of this sign makes any appeal much less robust, so any particular reason for not noticing it, like it is obscured by foliage ? Help us to help you.

Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #7 on: »
Unfortunately, I don't live nearby, so I can't check whether the sign is visible and uncovered by foliage.  Given the season, it seems unlikely that it's covered by leaves, and more likely that I simply missed it.

I guess I'm reduced to point (2).  I've seen on this forum that that people have been told to make this challenge.  However, I'm not sure I've seen whether it has led to any success.

Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #8 on: »
Point 2 is invariably rejected by councils so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals. This means foregoing the discount option.  On the other hand if they're asking for the full penalty, it is a total no-brainer to take them there because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. If you win, you pay nothing, and if you lose, you pay the PCN penalty.

Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #9 on: »
Unfortunately, I don't live nearby, so I can't check whether the sign is visible and uncovered by foliage.  Given the season, it seems unlikely that it's covered by leaves, and more likely that I simply missed it.

I guess I'm reduced to point (2).  I've seen on this forum that that people have been told to make this challenge.  However, I'm not sure I've seen whether it has led to any success.

Trust me. The PCN is pants. And I am happy to represent you. And it has had successes.

I am representing another member next week and cite this:

the council is fully aware of this very issue as the learned Adjudicator Carl Teper said in Stanmore Quality Services v London Borough of Southwark Case No. 2250417365:
As I and numerous colleagues of mine have held, the legislation as enacted provides that a Charge Certificate cannot be served prior to the expiry of 28 days from the date of service of the notice, which cannot be the same date as the date of the notice. At the hearing Mr Murray-Smith explained that this Authority has since amended its Penalty Charge Notice template, but this is an old case where the old wording was still in use; Mr Whitlock helpfully accepted that if the wording has been fixed, the wording that was in use previously must have been wrong. It is very helpful where the parties can assist by narrowing the issues in the case, but ultimately it falls to me to decide.


Doh! They have not changed it at all!  Why? Because they know that 95% people just pay up and join The Mugged Club.

PM sent.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:45:10 pm by Hippocrates »
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: PCN - Southwark - Restricted Route (time bound) - PCN received
« Reply #10 on: »
Point 2 is invariably rejected by councils so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals. This means foregoing the discount option.  On the other hand if they're asking for the full penalty, it is a total no-brainer to take them there because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. If you win, you pay nothing, and if you lose, you pay the PCN penalty.

If the OP wins, they can buy me a vitamin pill. Some retirement.  ;D
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Point 2 is invariably rejected by councils so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals. This means foregoing the discount option.  On the other hand if they're asking for the full penalty, it is a total no-brainer to take them there because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. If you win, you pay nothing, and if you lose, you pay the PCN penalty.

If the OP wins, they can buy me a vitamin pill. Some retirement.  ;D
I think a bottle of good whisky might do you more good. Only a wee dram or two, of course !