3. PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #15 on: »
You do have a case, because the council have a duty to put up signs that adequately convey the restrictions made by the order. They can't write an order that says parking is banned on a street, put up free parking signs and then hand out tickets saying 'ha ha, tricked you', which is effectively what's happened to you.

In your case, the distinction is probably only relevant if you need to explain to an adjudicator exactly how the council have messed up, it might have been that the red lines shouldn't have been there or that the bay shouldn't have been there, but as cp8759 says, the council presenting contradictory information to the motorist is a win for you anyway.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 10:45:52 am by Grant Urismo »
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #16 on: »
@cp8759 great thanks for that info, good work! so should i basically simplify my argument in the appeal about the wrong signage and send the same thing in the appeal?
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #17 on: »
None of the photos you've posted of your car puts you and the sign to which you refer in the same shot*. All we have is your account and the contextual elements in the photos, none of which shows bay markings in the vicinity of your car.

I can see a manhole cover immediately ahead of your car and a gulley grating behind. Your car is also flanked by new(ish) kerb stones many of which seem to be flush with the carriageway.

GSV puts this combination well away from the marked bay** and right on the DRL.

To put the matter beyond doubt I think you need clear photos of where you were parked which show the same combination of contextual factors and the DRL within the bay.

*- neither do the council's.

**- I've seen this (what I consider to be misleading) signage before and wonder whether it's becoming more widespread. The TfL website which you've referenced shows that a white-lined box means that the specified exemptions apply for the same period as the prohibition. From which a driver who's driving along a DRL-lined road should expect to be exempt, even if time-limited, 24/7. But this is not what's happened. Here, the 24/7 prohibition has suddenly changed at the bay and only for the extent of the bay which still exempts for the whole of the amended hours, BUT NOT 24/7.

Permissible/improper/sharp practice/unlawful? Who knows?

But pl nail the issue evidentially of where your car was parked first pl.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2024, 11:25:28 am by H C Andersen »
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: sahandnaz on May 11, 2024, 08:00:31 pm
@cp8759 great thanks for that info, good work! so should i basically simplify my argument in the appeal about the wrong signage and send the same thing in the appeal?
@sahandnaz before you can appeal you need to wait for the notice to owner, then you need to make a formal representation and if that is rejected, only at that point you can appeal.

There is nothing basic or simple about this, when people try to go it alone it can end in disaster, as sadly illustrated by these cases that were all winnable:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/eta-appeal-lost/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/

I suggest you post up the notice to owner when you receive it and we'll help you draft a formal representation.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on May 12, 2024, 11:23:35 am

... I can see a manhole cover immediately ahead of your car and a gulley grating behind. Your car is also flanked by new(ish) kerb stones many of which seem to be flush with the carriageway.

GSV puts this combination well away from the marked bay** and right on the DRL...


On the contrary, don't the manhole cover and the grating actually put the OP's car slap bang in the middle of the marked bay and well away from the DRLs?

See the GSV from July 2021  -  https://maps.app.goo.gl/L8SAsjFtvdkDMVCM8
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 11:07:02 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #20 on: »

....or equally much further back near the wall 'art' slap bang on the DYL?

IMO, the OP shouldn't leave this matter to chance at adjudication and should if possible obtain photos which on the balance of probabilities show the relevant street furniture which matches that in the council's photos taken from the same position.

..and of course the DRL within the box and the box together which would be the clincher.
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #21 on: »
Hi and in response I have taken a whole series of photos as put in my initial post with a link to extra imags.

I still don't have the "notice to owner", what should I do as it has been now just over 2 months since the informal appeal?

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 15, 2024, 12:24:11 pm by sahandnaz »
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: sahandnaz on June 15, 2024, 12:17:59 pm
Hi and in respone I have taken a whole series of photos as put in my initial post.

I still don't have the "notice to owner", what should I do as it has been now just over 2 months since the informal appeal.
They have 6 months to issue a Notice to Owner, but anything over 3 months can be considered acting unfairly. So it is early days yet.
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #23 on: »
@sahandnaz according to the TFL website at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn your address was requested from DVLA on 31 May and there has not been a response yet.

I suggest you keep an eye on the TFL website and check the PCN status at least once a week. Once you can see the NTO has been issued you can make representations immediately, you don't need to physically received the PCN in order to challenge it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #24 on: »
Dear all helpers,

I have received notice to owner, how would you recommend replying?

Just to recap, the marked bay saying you can park outside of the controlled hours 7am to 7pm was wrongly marked with double red lines inside it and is a hotspot for revenue generation by TFL. confirmed by the local bar staff tfl is using this to constantly fine people. you can't have both white lines for the parking bay and double red lines in the bay, but they have done since they repainted the road.

google maps link:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJsdWJzxEy8DPFiT6

photos link:
https://ibb.co/album/KNsLz1
- explanation, black volvo is mine, when i went back to photograph the location, white van was parked where i was and so i am drawing attention to location by circling same landmarks as on the original photo with my black volvo. also, there are two lanes to drive and one parking pay. the fining officer purposefully tries to cut off the white parking bay lines off in his photos (again confirmed by the local bar staff)

notice to owner: it's only 1MB pdf, this site wont let me attach it, says capacity is full, shall i start a new post? "The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator."

or maybe google drive link works?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FgDUgVQNWYWsZOrQ2kndsvOjifBbXWsr/view?usp=sharing

thank you for your help
naz
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 07:10:20 pm by sahandnaz »
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #25 on: »
Our administrator has said he will prepare formal reps for you when you get the NtO, so I expect he will be along here shortly. I had a look on London Tribunals Statutory Register for Curtain Road from Jan 2022, but there seem to be no cases matching yours, almost all of them are for footway parking.
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #26 on: »
Thanks i'm well appreciative of all the help and will await admins help

In terms of how long this could have been going on for: It's been since Dec 2023. After talking to Simmon's bar management next door, they informed me that the council repaved the road around Dec 2023 and the contractors painted the whole street with double red lines. Later they came back to paint the white line box demarcations but did not remove the red line inside this white box demarcation specifically at this spot. Since Dec 2023 to now they have been fining people in this white box demarcation, the staff told me loads of people they know have been fined at this exact spot I was in.
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #27 on: »
Loads of people get PCNs here , but it would seem they just all cough-up, despite there being a facility to submit representations and finally to take the matter to London Tribunals.  This is, of course, because most people know almost nothing of the details of parking law, and road markings, and assume, wrongly, that the councils and TfL are always right, so just pay the discount to make it all go away.
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Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #28 on: »
Short and simple:

Dear Transport for London,

The alleged contravention did not occur, owing to the contradictory and ambiguous signage at this location, I refer you to my informal representations in the first instance. While I accept there are double red lines at this location, there is also an upright sign indicating stopping is only restricted from 7 am to 7 pm, and my vehicle was parked outside of these hours. Looking at the location history on Google street view it is apparent that there is meant to be a white bay at this location i.e. a bay that is available at all times. If the restriction was ever amended to be a double red line restriction, it appears you must have forgotten to remove the upright sign, and the result is that the signage at this location no longer complies with regulation 18(1) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

It follows that the contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


TFL will probably reject but it's hard to see how they could defend this PCN at the tribunal. Send the representation via https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and don't forget to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Parking red route but in white box - Curtain Road, TF London (near Old Street)
« Reply #29 on: »
Hi administrator

So as you predicted they rejected my formal representation. Now I have to appeal by 27th August 2024 latest.  What on earth is their logic and how can I get through to them?  Please advise on how to word my appeal if different from the Actual representation (images attached on link of my representation and the TFL rejection).

https://ibb.co/album/QrzHxp

Should I refer to the legal precedence, another case you posted similar to mine and lead to the case being dropped? As you said earlier "I won an almost identical case on this basis last year, see Muhammad Adnan Aslam v Transport for London (2220794881, 17 May 2023), the only difference in that case is that there were no bay markings, just double red lines and an upright sign." https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zic3j2Le-kDKFIOFp36zQMhKPNwKjgSe/view

Many thanks
Naz
« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 11:09:46 pm by sahandnaz »
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