Author Topic: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching  (Read 1043 times)

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Good afternoon
 
At the time of the alleged contravention, the driver was a learner under my instruction as a driving instructor. The vehicle entered the junction only after the exit was seen to be clear. However, while completing the manoeuvre, a pedestrian approached and was about to cross, requiring us to slow and momentarily stop in order to comply with Rule H2 of the Highway Code, which gives priority to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross.

The vehicle was not stopped due to congestion or a blocked exit, but solely out of necessity to comply with pedestrian priority rules and ensure safety. The stop was brief and unavoidable, and therefore no contravention occurred.

I challenged this PCN on 14th August.
I received an email from Lewisham council acknowledging my challenge submission. It reads:

“Please find attached details of the challenge/representation you submitted using our online service.

Please note this this is a system generated alert and was sent from an unmonitored mailbox.”
Plus my statement attached as pdf file.

I haven’t heard from Lewisham council since then.

When I log in their website it tells me either to pay or challenge the PCN.
 

Thank you

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Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #1 on: »
It's not unusual to have to wait more than two weeks. There's no time limit under the legislation although a delay of more than three months is usually viewed as excessive by adjudicators.

You've blocked out the registration and PCN number so we can't see the video and give you a view of chance of success but if it is as you describe you should win (but don't expect the council to concede!).

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #2 on: »
Please read this and update your thread accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

For cases like this it's essential we see the video.  For your information, a YBJ contravention is only committed when the vehicle enters the box and has to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #3 on: »
Good afternoon Sir

Please excuse my ignorance. I’m a novice here.

There’s the PCN issued from Lewisham council with the picture and video evidence.

Penalty Charge Notice Number: ZY20231792
Vehicle registration No: PN170PO

Thank you

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #4 on: »
This is so obviously not a contravention that costs would be awarded if they forced you to take it to the tribunal.

I take it you are the registered keeper of the car.

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Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #5 on: »
That's one of the daftest PCNs I've ever seen.

Not only are there no stationary vehicles in sight, but the car doesn't actually seem to come to a complete stop in the box!

Other than that, the OP is totally bang to rights  ;D

@Ventz, although you are a driving instructor and sound admirably familiar with the Highway Code, it's important to understand that a box junction offence in law occurs (only) when "a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles".

Therefore, if the reason for the stop (even if there was one which the video suggests there likely wasn't) was for anything other than a stationary vehicle, there is no offence committed, end of conversation.  On that front, the video evidence makes it abundantly clear you have no case to answer.  There's no need to justify the stop in any way via references to hierarchy of road users, or duties of care.

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #6 on: »
+1
If this ever gets to adjudication, it would be a slam-dunk win, and you really MUST seek costs as councils are rather too fond of this sort of thing. The pity is that all adjudicators can do is decide which side wins, they have no powers to force councils to sack the people who issue these sort of illegal PCNs or impose anything on councils whatsoever. Yet another booking for Charons boat across the Styx, I think.

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #7 on: »
@Ventz

No contravention plus:

PCN issue

I make this collateral challenge against the validity of the PCN as it does not state mandatory information provided at 4(8 )(v) of

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted which in turn refers to 4(8 )(iii). Therefore, the PCN is not valid as it is missing mandatory information. And so it follows that the statement beginning with "If you fail................." is not only conflated but also does not even mention the said information thus exacerbating the lack of clarity of this PCN. Whether the "or" is interpreted as conjunctively or disjunctively, is somewhat further complicated  by the missing information.  Therefore, it must be read as to be paid before the end of 28 days from the date of service, which is wrong. The High Court has ruled that there must be such clarity in Hackney Drivers.

Considering the above, the PCN is invalid.

*****

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg86653/#msg86653

****

I say Tribunal time and am more than willing to represent you.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2025, 09:49:43 pm by Hippocrates »
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #8 on: »
There's no notice of rejection yet... Who knows, Lewisham may do the decent thing.

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #9 on: »
I know. I just copied and pasted a post to save me time as, like the other two Musketeers, I am pressed for time advising here and dealing with cases at the Tribunal - plus other matters.  ;D
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #10 on: »
Thanks everybody for the comments.

I haven’t heard anything from the council, so what’s my next step?

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks everybody for the comments.

I haven’t heard anything from the council, so what’s my next step?
Theball is now in their court, because until you have a rejection of your reps, you can't register an appeal at London Tribunals.  What I would do, is check their website every so often to see what stage their computer shows for your PCN.

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #12 on: »
OP, we've touched on the contravention, but given your naïveté(your reps don't touch on the substantive legal issues) I think we should spell out the law.

This prohibition doesn't require a traffic order, the marking conveys the legal requirement(and as an instructor I'm surprised that you don't know..but moving on).

The marking can be found at Item 25 in the Part 6 Table here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9

The prohibition is:
Box junctions
11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
.


A stationary vehicle did not cause the driver to stop therefore as a matter of law the contravention did not occur. A driver may stop to let an asthmatic snail carrying heavy shopping cross the road or for any other reason as long as it is not 'due to the presence of stationary vehicles'.

The council are a***h***s.

What's new?
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Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #13 on: »


The council are a***h***s.

What's new?

Rather:

st***ing p****da

I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: PCN in a box junction when turning left and pedestrian approaching
« Reply #14 on: »
Good evening everyone,

I received a letter from Lewisham council advising me that the PCN has been cancelled. Success. 

I want to thank you for your help and advice. 

Regards
Vent

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