Author Topic: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs  (Read 1055 times)

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Hopefully someone can offer some advice on a PCN I have received for parking in a suspended parking bay, but there were no suspension signs on the bay I parked in.

This happened on 12/6/24 in Newham when I was visiting Excel for an exhibition. I do not live in London, and was unaware of any restrictions in force other than the restrictions of the signpost. I parked up in a bay, and noted the parking restrictions being permit holders only Mon - Sat 0800 - 1830. I was parking on a Sunday, so these restrictions did not apply, so I parked up.

When I got back to my vehicle 3 hours later the was a PCN attached to the vehicle stating that I was parked in a suspended bay.

There was no signage on the bay I parked in. The bays further up the road did have suspension notices on, but not the one I was in, or the one next to it.

I made an informal appeal to Newham, and was sure that they would back down, but to my surprise that have declined to cancel the ticket.

I am inclined to take it to the next stage once they have issued the Notice to Owner, but I am here for advise if this is a sensible option, as if I lose that appeal then my penalty increases from £65 to £130, so I really would like your opinion on if it is worth the risk. What do you think?

PCN
Parking location with sign
Parking loaction with sign 2
Parking location from distance
Correct signage on other bays
Appeal text made to council
Appeal acknowledgement
Appeal response declining
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 07:01:26 pm by Darkhorse »

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Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #1 on: »
You need to release your photos. At the moment, access is denied.
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Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #2 on: »
@Darkhorse well obviously you should carry on as the council's case appears entirely hopeless, but they have mindless drones on minimum wage who send fob-off letters in response to all informal challenges, because most people give up and pay so there is no incentive for the council to do anything different.

As per the guidance please give us the PCN number and the number plate and I'll also get hold of the suspension logs.

I take it you have the V5C and the address is up to date? Don't assume, please physically check it.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #3 on: »
My apologies for removing the information required.

The PCN is PN38684020
The VRN is S70VAK

Really appreciate you looking into this in such depth. I must admit I was expecting to get roasted for asking the question, and fully expected to be told that it was my fault as I should have looked at the signage 200 up the road (which if I had noticed it, I probably would have, but did not see it, as I walked the other way).

I am now feeling vindicated in my initial thoughts that the PCN was unfairly issued, and the councils response is just trying to force me into settling with a fight.

The V5 is definitely registered to the correct address, but as you say, always best to check.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 07:45:17 am by Darkhorse »

Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #4 on: »
It's not a 'suspended parking bay', you might want to change this to 'Parked in contravention of temp traffic order'.

The rules regarding signage are slightly but(as set out below) materially different as between suspension, which simply requires adequate signs to this effect, whereas a TTRO requires an order - you can see (or rather can't see) the salient points of this in the 2 pages of A4 on the sign. Separate regs also apply.

No doubt cp will obtain the order for a belts and braces approach.

The photo of the sign shows this to be on lamp column 1 which is situated right at the start of the affected area. A tick for the council.

But this is not a continuous parking place, instead it's a series of separate parking places each with its own traffic sign.

As a minimum, IMO the council were required to cover the traffic signs in all affected bays as well as place a TTRO sign.

I'll set out my understanding of the law as regards signage for comment by others:

This is a restriction to which s14(7) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act applies;
Therefore, paragraphs 6 and 7 of the Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992 apply;

In particular, 7(c) which provides:
 
(c)in a case where the instrument [the TTRO] contains provisions suspending statutory provisions [the Traffic Management Order which designated and regulates the parking places] to which section 14(7) of the 1984 Act applies, such removal, replacement or covering up of existing traffic signs as the authority may consider requisite for the purpose of avoiding confusion to the users of the road.

In short, IMO by not covering up those traffic signs in the affected bays(plural, it's not just your parking place that's affected), the council have not complied with their legal obligations.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2024, 09:40:18 am by H C Andersen »
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Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #5 on: »
Council photos:















@Darkhorse the council is running a nice little scam here, though not a deliberate one. Some lazy official didn't put enough appropriate signs up, and they have a bunch of mindless drones on minimum wage sending out fob-off rejections to all informal challenges, knowing that 99% of people will just give up and pay.

At the formal representation I'd suggest some rather robust representations are needed, then if they're stupid enough to reject you can aim for a costs order against the council at the tribunal stage.

I have also requested a copy of the TTRO itself and all the statutory documents to go along with it.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #7 on: »
Thanks for all you help chaps, I was blown away with the time and effort you have put into getting information.

I appealed the PCN, and had email conformation that it had been received on 18/7/24 stating that they would respond within 56 days (which would have been yesterday I believe). Of course I have had no other response from them within this time.

Am I correct to assume that this is now time barred?

Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #8 on: »
Did you get an NTO? They have 56 days to respond to a representation to an NTO (it's not an appeal - that's what comes at the tribunal).

I read a case at the tribunal the other day where a council tried it on with a suspended bay in a row of separate bays but without signing the one in question. It was of course allowed in favour of the keeper. 

Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #9 on: »
Did you get an NTO? They have 56 days to respond to a representation to an NTO (it's not an appeal - that's what comes at the tribunal).

I read a case at the tribunal the other day where a council tried it on with a suspended bay in a row of separate bays but without signing the one in question. It was of course allowed in favour of the keeper.

I should have been clearer, my fault. Yes I did get a NTO, and made a formal representation (using all of the great information obtained from this post), received an email back stating that they would reply within 56 days, but have received no further communication from them, and this 56 days has now expired.

Is this now time barred for them to take any further action?

Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #10 on: »
A letter could be lost but it seems they have probably cancelled it as amount owing is £0.

You don't have to do anything but you could email them for peace of mind.

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Re: PCN for parking in a suspended bay with no suspension signs
« Reply #11 on: »
@cp8759 @stamfordman

I had a similar issue with Newham at another location on a Sunday with similar markings and Newham towed my car away leaving me and my family stranded for hours. To make it worse they had closed up for the day and I had to come all the way back to Canning Town next day (Monday) and pay £300 to get my car back.

I managed to challenge it and took them to court and was able to convince the judge that the signs were misleading at best. The judge agreed and have ruled in my favour.