3. Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth  (Read 1808 times)

0 Members and 116 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #15 on: »
If a notice from the council includes such incorrect info then that's a different matter as would if the council platform refused to accept the correct penalty.

This is not a new issue. Please check the cases. The issue is that the website contradicts what the paperwork says and, to cap it all, the latter directs you to the website! ( A few years ago Merton took down from their website that no London council needed approval for their bus lane cameras. Imagine the effect of that. They removed it at my insistence.)
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: Chaseman on June 24, 2024, 02:03:09 pm
Yes but they have not seen the arguments we might be advancing unless they can link the VRN/PCN number to the thread.
They're not going to find the thread as they don't have time, and even if they did they could only find it if it's typed, if the PCN number is only shown as a scanned image it won't come up in a search. We've been advising people to share PCN numbers and VRMs with us for years and we've not seen a single case where a council has found the thread. Even if the council did find it, they typically won't find anything on here that would help them.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #17 on: »
I have bunged in representations on the Lambeth website - which I describe as requests for clarification -in the following form:

Quote
When I went on to your website to view the photographic evidence supporting the issue of this PCN I noted that it said words to the effect of "pay £65 now or else the charge will go up to £130 on 16 July". I seek two points of clarification here:

1. I thought I had 14 days from issue of the PCN to pay at the discounted rate of £65. This would take us to 3 July. Yet you seem to be saying that the charge only reverts to the full £130 on 16 July. Is that correct?

2. If you are saying that 16 July represents the day 28 days after issue of the PCN for payment in full, then I must disagree. The 28th day after issue of the PCN is 17 July. The PCN was issued on a Thursday (in this case 20 June). Therefore a 28 day period following must end on a Wednesday (in this case 17 July). It would appear you are not acting in accordance with London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 Part 2 Section 4  para 8 (a) (iv) and (v).

I will request that you put the PCN on hold, preserving the opportunity to pay at the discounted rate, pending your clarification on these points.
Logged
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #18 on: »
I would not have written this, sorry to state. You should have requested cancellation, not provided them with a list of provisional questions so that they can put the matter on hold. I would rescind and spell it out to them as previously advised.
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: Chaseman on June 27, 2024, 01:01:58 am
I have bunged in representations on the Lambeth website
It's not a representation because of the way it's worded. If they ignore it and issue a charge certificate, you won't have any grounds to file a statutory declaration because you have not advanced the proposition that any of the statutory grounds of appeal are made out, nor have you asked them to cancel the PCN. If you make a statutory declaration anyway (which would be a criminal offence so I would urge you not to go down that route), you'll end up at the tribunal where the adjudicator will likely issue a direction to pay on the ground that representations were never made.

You need to make a proper representation that must advance the proposition that one of the statutory grounds of appeal is made out.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #20 on: »
Not surprisingly had a letter from Lambeth rejecting my representations which they took to be a request for cancellation in any case.

I have not uploaded the letter because I can't! I converted the pdf from my scanner to both jpeg and png and it was rejected by both imgur and tinypic. I am obviously doing something wrong but I have no idea what.

Anyway the key lines are

"Please be aware that the time to pay the discounted amount is correct. I have extended this discount time for a further 14 days from the date of this letter [16 July].

We sent you a PCN because our CCTV camera evidence shows your vehicle going where vehicles are not allowed. The sign is round white and has a red border, with a picture of a motorcycle and a motor vehicle.....there is no exemption applicable to your vehicle."

I don't think I have much in the way of grounds to fight this one. They may have been technically wrong with the discount period but now they are offering another 14 days anyway. I am minded to pay at the discounted rate.
Logged
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #21 on: »
You have my email address.
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #22 on: »
Penalty Charge Notice details
• Ticket Reference
LJ2877492A
• Your PCN is at full rate stage. PCN process information
• Vehicle Registration Number
KY15HXG
• Colour
BLACK
• Make
SUZUKI
• Contravention
52m - Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles)

• Location
Larkhall Rise (C)

• First seen at
Sat, 15 Jun 2024 18:27
• Issued at
Sat, 15 Jun 2024 18:27
• Served by
Post
The amount outstanding on the Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Mon, 5 Aug 2024. Please pay £65.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Sat, 13 Jul 2024. You cannot make representations twice

 And they responded on 16th July not 13th July.

The date of 5th August is also wholly wrong! Whichever way you work out the 28 days!


Wholly wrong! NOR is dated 16th July.   The earliest they could send a C.C. would be 14th August.

I say appeal it. I would even wager they would issue a Charge Certificate while an appeal is pending as is their want!  :D
« Last Edit: July 25, 2024, 12:28:46 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #23 on: »
Thanks for this Hippocrates. All taken from the Lambeth website and I agree with you incorrect so far as date of NoR, date of potential issue of CC and the use of "will" not "may" are concerned. None of this replicated in the NoR itself. The NoR has two different dates for the extended discount period [14 days from date of letter or date of service of letter] although this is discretionary and probably not fatal to the NoR. 

Your recommendation to appeal is based on the presumption that the website is a direct form of communication with the recipient of the PCN and hence errors here have as much weight as errors on the PCN itself?

So far as my original letter to them seeking clarification is concerned, I was trying to hold open the possibility of following up with a formal appeal but they took that as a formal appeal for cancellation and rejected it, claiming the discount period was correct and in any case re-offering it. So no opportunity to have another bite at the cherry.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2024, 01:59:29 pm by Chaseman »
Logged
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: Chaseman on July 25, 2024, 01:53:06 pm


Your recommendation to appeal is based on the presumption that the website is a direct form of communication with the recipient of the PCN and hence errors here have as much weight as errors on the PCN itself?



Correct.
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #25 on: »
So under which appeal grounds would this fall?

A “procedural impropriety” means a failure by an enforcement authority to observe any requirement imposed on it by—

(a)the TMA 2004,

(b)the 2022 General Regulations, or

(c)these Regulations,

in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum.

If publishing information on a website or even linking to a website - absent statements in a notice itself - was a PI then the vast majority of TPT appeals would succeed and similarly ETA because the Tribunals' key website info is flawed. But it's not their duty, it's the authority's.

Now, if a person acted upon and within their notice but, for example, payment was not accepted by the council then this would be a different matter IMO.

Reference was made to 'cases' which apparently support the PI claim. Could I suggest that the best two or three are referenced for the OP's purposes.
Logged
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #26 on: »
Procedural Impropriety is not included as one of the allowed grounds for appeal on the TA form. I presume one would tick the box "penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable" on the basis that having committed a PI the LA should cancel the ticket and hence the applicable amount is nil.

If I appeal then, unless the LA shoots itself in the foot by issuing a CC while the case is still pending, I am arguing on the basis that the website can cause a PI to be committed, even if the PCN or NoR does not. It would be good to have some precedent that this argument holds water. I am in no doubt that I fell foul of the street signage leading to the PCN so my only ground for appeal is the PI. If we take the extension to the discount period to be 14 days from the date of the NoR then I have until 30 July (next Tuesday) to decide whether to pay at the discounted rate.
Logged
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #27 on: »
Steady on. Do not file any appeal until after their whacko time frames expire.  I sent you a Redbridge case recently won which would be similar.

I tell you they are in much disarray at present after a recent hearing.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2024, 06:52:17 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #28 on: »
I know I have until 13 August to file with LT. My more immediate decision is whether to appeal at all and if not to pay at discount rate by next Tuesday. I am as yet not persuaded that incorrect/misleading dates on the website is a slam dunk for PI. The Redbridge case hinged on premature issue of a CC which Lambeth haven't done .....yet.
Logged
Re: Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth
« Reply #29 on: »
I have never used the PI phrase.  :) If allowed, it would be on the ground that the penalty exceeded amount.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2024, 11:40:46 am by Hippocrates »
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Pages: 1 [2] 3
« previous next »
  3. Motorbike 52m PCN Lambeth