Author Topic: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)  (Read 5955 times)

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #60 on: »

There should be a law against councils acting in this way!

Have submitted a two line appeal relying on previous reps (and further points to be raised after reviewing the council evidence) to london tribunals to get the process started. Will update once I have a date/time.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 07:05:12 am by taffer87 »

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #61 on: »
hire agreement attached. any wording and previous tribunal cases to support the not owner argument will be really appreciated based on this





Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #62 on: »
You've posted a very low resolution copy of the agreement, but this seems to be the killer term:



There's plainly been no permanent disposition if the registered keeper can take the vehicle back whenever it wants.

Wait for the council evidence pack but that's basically the point that will win you the case.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #63 on: »
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rv8m7ivg9u7q1s3k76mgo/Appeal-skeleton.docx?rlkey=25075flfm6i07y5lvs991m967&dl=0

Waiting for council evidence and case listed for early March 2024 at London Tribunals now

Thinking of uploading this next week in advance of council evidence pack and can then edit / add anything after council evidence
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 09:10:45 pm by taffer87 »

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #64 on: »
Thinking of uploading this next week in advance of council evidence pack and can then edit / add anything after council evidence
No, as I've told you privately, don't submit anything until the council has shown their hand. There is literally zero reason to upload anything now.

After all, for all you know they might not submit anything at all and then you just win by default.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #65 on: »
Thinking of uploading this next week in advance of council evidence pack and can then edit / add anything after council evidence
No, as I've told you privately, don't submit anything until the council has shown their hand. There is literally zero reason to upload anything now.

After all, for all you know they might not submit anything at all and then you just win by default.

Thanks will do that (not submit for now)


Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #67 on: »
For cp, given Jack Walsh's recent decision, where does this stand?

The alleged contravention is supported by evidence which can be viewed at
https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets/parking-fines/view-pcn-
evidence
for the Environment Traffic Adjudicators and
the appellant.

But they've included other exhibits which might replicate this 'evidence'.


Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #68 on: »
Interestingly they have offered the £65 discount again if the appeal is unsuccessful.

How exact does the PCN that the council includes in the evidence pack need to be? Is it supposed to be an exact copy as there are some minor differences eg.

Is this a winner on its own?

Front page differences:


Council copy says: "Who Believed That the Following Parking Contravention Had Been Committed"
Actual PCN says: "Who had reason to Believe That the Following Parking Contravention Had Been Committed: 12"

Council copy says: "or without payment of the parking charge"
Actual PCN says: "or without payment of the parking charge (shared use bay)"

Council copy says: "The penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred."
Actual PCN says: "The penalty charge must be paid no later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served."

Council copy says: "notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%"
Actual PCN says: "notice is served ("the 14 day period"), the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%"

Council PCN has this which actual PCN does not have: "View any photos of the contravention at www.lambeth.cov.uk/parkingphotos Please allow up to 5 working days to view"

Also, council copy has no row for CEO signature

Back of PCN

Text looks all the same, actual PCN has a "I am idler" image at the end but assume this is irrelevant.

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #69 on: »
I've highlighted in red the differences that normally are considered material:

Interestingly they have offered the £65 discount again if the appeal is unsuccessful.

How exact does the PCN that the council includes in the evidence pack need to be? Is it supposed to be an exact copy as there are some minor differences eg.

Is this a winner on its own?

Front page differences:


Council copy says: "Who Believed That the Following Parking Contravention Had Been Committed"
Actual PCN says: "Who had reason to Believe That the Following Parking Contravention Had Been Committed: 12"

Council copy says: "or without payment of the parking charge"
Actual PCN says: "or without payment of the parking charge (shared use bay)"


Council copy says: "The penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred."
Actual PCN says: "The penalty charge must be paid no later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice was served."


Council copy says: "notice is served, the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%"
Actual PCN says: "notice is served ("the 14 day period"), the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%"

Council PCN has this which actual PCN does not have: "View any photos of the contravention at www.lambeth.cov.uk/parkingphotos Please allow up to 5 working days to view"

Also, council copy has no row for CEO signature

Back of PCN

Text looks all the same, actual PCN has a "I am idler" image at the end but assume this is irrelevant.

Go to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?pli=1#gid=642784037 and look at rows 633 to 659, those are all the decisions you can cite. The leading authorities are Vanessa Price v Nottingham City Council and Tahir Hamid v London Borough of Waltham Forest.

I suggest however that you read all the cases and try and find one with similar discrepancies. This issue will easily win an appeal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #70 on: »
Thanks @cp8759 I have added this and the relevant backup to the draft appeal document as point 2.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2024, 09:43:12 pm by taffer87 »

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #71 on: »
@Hippocrates

@cp8759

The NTO I received has this in grounds of appeal

"At the time the alleged contravention occurred the vehicle in question was in the control of a person who did not have the consent of the owner - Please enclose evidence (e.g. police crime report, insurance claim)."

I have seen numerous mentions in the forum recently that wording similar to this for TWOC fetters to theft (and is thus a PI?). Any thoughts on this or past tribunal cases so I can include this as an appeal point too for tribunal?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 11:27:28 am by taffer87 »

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #72 on: »
Re the hyperlink to the video evidence. This case is very relevant

2210208756

Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons   
The Authority has not complied with the requirements for providing CCTV evidence directed by the Tribunal in the Chief Adjudicator's Practice Direction which reads:

'The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 require parties to an appeal to deliver evidence to the Proper Officer. Evidence must be submitted in an immediately accessible form. It is expected that when an enforcement authority is relying on moving images, where a DVD containing the evidence is not provided, the relevant CCTV evidence will be presented in a file containing the uploaded evidence and included in the authority’s evidence bundle. Providing a hyperlink to an authority’s website is not considered to be a proper delivery or submission of evidence. Authorities will also be aware that using this system has resulted in adjudicators allowing appeals, when they have been unable to access or view evidence; this does not occur when the evidence is correctly submitted. The evidence form category type K, will be amended to refer to “CCTV uploaded evidence” and from 4th April 2020 authorities must submit the evidence in the required format. (Providing the evidence in DVD form under category type J “unscannable evidence” remains acceptable).'

Therefore I do not have before me any CCTV evidence showing the appellant's vehicle stationary in the box junction. Stills are not adequate evidence as I cannot be satisfied the vehicle is stationary. The Authority cannot rely on any evidence or apparent admissions made by the appellant. I must decide if the Authority has shown there is a case to answer before I look at the appellant's evidence. In this case it has not done so.

It is for the Authority to prove its case and in the absence of adequate evidence it has not done so. I therefore allow the appeal on that basis.

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #73 on: »
Re the hyperlink to the video evidence. This case is very relevant

2210208756

Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The Authority has not complied with the requirements for providing CCTV evidence directed by the Tribunal in the Chief Adjudicator's Practice Direction which reads:

'The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 require parties to an appeal to deliver evidence to the Proper Officer. Evidence must be submitted in an immediately accessible form. It is expected that when an enforcement authority is relying on moving images, where a DVD containing the evidence is not provided, the relevant CCTV evidence will be presented in a file containing the uploaded evidence and included in the authority’s evidence bundle. Providing a hyperlink to an authority’s website is not considered to be a proper delivery or submission of evidence. Authorities will also be aware that using this system has resulted in adjudicators allowing appeals, when they have been unable to access or view evidence; this does not occur when the evidence is correctly submitted. The evidence form category type K, will be amended to refer to “CCTV uploaded evidence” and from 4th April 2020 authorities must submit the evidence in the required format. (Providing the evidence in DVD form under category type J “unscannable evidence” remains acceptable).'

Therefore I do not have before me any CCTV evidence showing the appellant's vehicle stationary in the box junction. Stills are not adequate evidence as I cannot be satisfied the vehicle is stationary. The Authority cannot rely on any evidence or apparent admissions made by the appellant. I must decide if the Authority has shown there is a case to answer before I look at the appellant's evidence. In this case it has not done so.

It is for the Authority to prove its case and in the absence of adequate evidence it has not done so. I therefore allow the appeal on that basis.

Thanks, they have included all the photos in evidence separately anyway.

Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #74 on: »
As I posited might be the case.

OP, the link to their evidence no longer works!

As others have observed, the main procedural issue in your favour would appear to be the authority issuing a NTO in your name. They had no power to do this when on the basis of what was discussed before the authority posted their evidence they could not cancel the NTO issued to the de jure owner i.e. the hire company. A NTO is a legal document; it demands payment from the recipient; councils may only issue these in prescribed circumstances; councils may enforce payment using the full weight of the law, even to seizing the recipient's goods.

So, is their demand for the penalty lawful? In the context of this point, only if the owner made representations in the correct form and manner and if these provided the evidence which the law requires in order to empower the council to cancel their NTO and issue a fresh one to you.

We need access to the council's evidence.