Author Topic: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)  (Read 2754 times)

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taffer87

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Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« on: October 26, 2023, 02:07:23 pm »
Will upload council photos as soon as they are on council website

I received a PCN this morning - had an appointment at the hospital - found parking and paid on paybyphone.co.uk (I thought I had and went through all the steps at 10.18). This area is full of council enforcement officers and would never even think of not paying here.

Had 2 kids under 3 in the car, loaded them onto the pram - got to the hospital building and in waiting area i saw the phone and it was showing a "Connection Error" and asking me to pay again - I was stupid and should have taken a screenshot but didn't as panicked a bit and immediately paid but as the receipt shows this was at 10.33

The appointment was relatively quick and I actually got back to the car at 11am and found the PCN on the windscreen. The council website shows they started observing at 10.20 and issued at 10.26

The car is a lease car (VWFS, who only provide a letter to the Council, not the lease agreement and I have had a previous PCN cancelled by London Tribunals from a different council (Lewisham) as the council never received the hire agreement from the authority).

Will be great to get advice on this - assume I should send an informal rep to the council basically apologising and explaining the circumstances?

Are there any technical flaws that could help?

Worst case - I may have to bet on the same hire agreement technical issues again but would be better to have something more too.

GSV link here: parked exactly where the white car is so right next to the sign too.. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4685773,-0.0956214,3a,75y,242.96h,75.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-C_5JmXuEQ7ed-2twzSEBg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu



]

« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 04:17:33 pm by taffer87 »

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taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2023, 02:23:02 pm »
Managed to get this evidence so far

1. Google timeline showing the journey and legnth of stay
2. Hospital appointment time showing the 10.30 appointment time
3. Receipt of parking from last hospital visit

I can also add daschcam photos if that would be beneficial

The only thing I am trying to sort out evidence for is the time i visited the paybyphone website as Chrome app on android (on my wife's phone) doesn't show the time stamp for previous days visits even though Chrome app on Iphone does show time stamp for previous days... trying to see if i can get the history file or can export data somehow to prove the exact time...

The appointment was at the Golden Jubilee Wing and as per google maps it takes a 3 min walk. However, with kids and then entering the building, waiting at lifts goin to the right ward its about 8-10 minutes

Will appreciate any advice - is it worth submitting informal reps? Any history with Lambeth - would they consider? If not worth it then I can just not to anything and wait for NTO and then see if they issued a notice of acceptance to the lease company / what documents they received from lease company etc






council photos now available too

« Last Edit: October 28, 2023, 03:32:19 pm by taffer87 »

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2023, 03:33:51 pm »
A good starting point would be for your to draw up a draft representation including all the points you want to advance and all the supporting evidence you want to put forwards. That makes it much easier for us to evaluate the strength of your case.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2023, 04:37:21 pm »
yes will do but want to check if by some luck there is anything technically wrong with the PCN text?

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2023, 09:11:44 pm »
yes will do but want to check if by some luck there is anything technically wrong with the PCN text?
I can't see anything wrong with the PCN itself.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2023, 02:02:56 pm »
Draft rep below - any comments welcome on the text and/or merits./. if not worth it then I can just wait for NTO, transfer of liability and hope council don't issue Notice of Acceptance or don't get the hire agreement etc (which some adjudicators allow as an appeal point) - doing it my wife's name as paid via her phone.

Dear Sirs,
I want to make an informal representation regarding PCN XXXX .
I was attending a post-pregnancy complication-related hospital appointment at 10.30am (hospital appointment letter can be seen in exhibit A) and arrived at the location at 10.15am. The Paybyphone app (which I had used at a previous appointment on 25-May, receipt picture in exhibit B) was not working so I used the Chrome browser application on the phone to go to the paybyphone website and started a session by entering my details and went through all the steps including payment by 10.20 am and the session was showing as having started on the page. I paid for 1.5 hours as my last appointment at the same hospital clinic had taken around 2 hours due to delays and I was anticipating staying for a long time. From my previous visit, I am also aware that this area is enforced strictly by the council, being right next to a hospital and there are many enforcement agents walking about at all times.
I then had to take 2 of my kids (an under 1-year-old and the other a 2-year-old) out of the car and put in the pram and get to the Golden Jubilee Wing of the hospital and enter the 3rd floor which took around 10 minutes and I arrive at the hospital clinic at 10.30. To my shock, on reaching the location when I looked at my mobile again the live parking session had disappeared and the paybyphone website was showing a “Connection Error” message. I immediately restarted the steps and purchased a new session which started at 10.33 am for 1.5 hours (see Exhibit C for receipt, no receipt received for the session started earlier around 10.15 am).
The appointment at the clinic was very efficient this time and I was seen shortly after. I then took my kids and myself back to the car and was shocked to see a PCN attached to the car.
I had no intention of not paying for the session and the parking session had started on the paybyphone website when I left the car and due to some error with the paybyphone website or system the session was not recorded. I also include a photo of my browser history which shows I had to visit paybyphone app multiple times in the morning of the 26th (see exhibit D).
I left the site at 10.51 am (see Exhibit E, Google timeline showing my time of arrival and departure).
I urge you to please consider the circumstances above and cancel the PCN. I will of course be more than happy to provide any other information that you request.

Yours faithfully,

Exhibits



« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 08:56:15 pm by taffer87 »

taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2023, 06:36:14 pm »
Bump - looking to send rep by end of tomorrow so any comments welcome

Pastmybest

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2023, 09:38:38 pm »
I am not a fan of the story re the appointment, all you are doing is asking for discretion that will not be given.

You must focus on the connection error and the fact that you paid as soon as a connection was secured

You must be given time to make the payment and as the pay by phone was the only option then it's up to the council to ensure it is accessible

for the informal reps that is the major point, the hospital appointment matters only in that it is reason why you did not wait at the car until payment is made you don't have to but the council will say you should

For later there is another ground which i would not bring up just yet   

taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2023, 10:56:18 am »
Thanks - will be great to know the other potential argument if possible even if not including now.

I have now also received a response from Paybyphone support, will be good to know if adds to my case/helps? or should i not include it (last pic below)

Updated draft ref below



Dear Sirs,
I want to make an informal representation regarding PCN XXXX.
I was attending a post-pregnancy complication-related hospital appointment at 10.30am (hospital appointment letter can be seen in exhibit A) and arrived at the location at 10.15am. The Paybyphone app (which I had used at a previous appointment on 25-May, receipt picture in exhibit B) was not working so I used the Chrome browser application on the phone to go to the paybyphone website and started a session by entering my details and went through all the steps including payment by 10.20 am and the session was showing as having started on the page. I paid for 1.5 hours as my last appointment at the same hospital clinic had taken around 2 hours due to delays and I was anticipating staying for a long time. From my previous visit, I am also aware that this area is enforced strictly by the council, being right next to a hospital and there are many enforcement agents walking about at all times.
I then had to take 2 of my kids (an under 1-year-old and the other a 2-year-old) out of the car and put in the pram and get to the Golden Jubilee Wing of the hospital and enter the 3rd floor which took around 10 minutes and I arrive at the hospital clinic at 10.30. To my shock, on reaching the location when I looked at my mobile again the live parking session had disappeared and the paybyphone website was showing a “Connection Error” message. I immediately restarted the steps and purchased a new session which started at 10.33 am for 1.5 hours (see Exhibit C for receipt for this, no receipt email received for the earlier session from 10.15).
The appointment at the clinic was very efficient this time and I was seen shortly after. I then took my kids and myself back to the car and was dismayed to see a PCN attached to the car.
I had no intention of not paying for the session and the parking session had started on the paybyphone website when I left the car and due to some error with the paybyphone website or system the session was not recorded. I also include a photo of my browser history which shows I had to visit paybyphone app multiple times in the morning of the 26th (see exhibit D).
I left the site at 10.51 am (see Exhibit E, Google timeline showing my time of arrival and departure).


In summary: I started a paid live parking session at around 10.15am and left with the honest belief I had paid. There must have been some technical issues with Paymyphone as their mobile application was not working and I was forced to pay via the browser which showed a live session when I left the car. I immediately paid for a new parking session when on reaching the hospital I realised the live parking session had turned into an "Connection Error" message in the paybyphone website. I then had to try multiple times to make the payment as can be seen. The only reason the parking session disappeared after initially being started by me is a technical issue with paybyphonbe and I have even contacted Paybyphone support who confirmed that I went through all the steps at 10:15 and entered the payment details, location time etc. For some fault with their website the session started on my browser but not on their system (Exhibit F)

I urge you to please consider the circumstances above and cancel the PCN. I will of course be more than happy to provide any other information that you request.

Yours faithfully,

Exhibits




« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 12:23:35 pm by taffer87 »

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2023, 10:46:43 pm »
Definitely include the paybyphone logs, it's the only evidence that shows you haven't made the whole thing up.

However to set your expectations, you will almost certainly have to take this to the tribunal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2023, 07:34:06 am »
thanks - so assuming no further comments will send today

re tribunal i guess they will not really accept the above and think it’s mitigation so will need to rely on council messing something on transfer of liability or other procedures?

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2023, 01:49:16 pm »
thanks - so assuming no further comments will send today

re tribunal i guess they will not really accept the above and think it’s mitigation so will need to rely on council messing something on transfer of liability or other procedures?
I'm not sure it is mitigation, one could say that if the council provides a payment system, it's up to them to ensure it works as expected and without errors.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Pastmybest

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2023, 02:06:05 pm »
thanks - so assuming no further comments will send today

re tribunal i guess they will not really accept the above and think it’s mitigation so will need to rely on council messing something on transfer of liability or other procedures?
I'm not sure it is mitigation, one could say that if the council provides a payment system, it's up to them to ensure it works as expected and without errors.

+1 the risk of connection problems should have been assessed and mitigated for

taffer87

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2023, 04:39:01 pm »
Thanks, submitted the reps on 2 November.

Will update when I hear back.

I guess I was thinking the council will say there were no technical faults etc but hopefully, there is enough evidence to support otherwise.

cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - windscreen PCN - code 12s - Cutcombe Road (A)
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2023, 09:24:41 pm »
I guess I was thinking the council will say there were no technical faults etc...
Of course, and back in the day the thief-takers also maintained that they only ever caught the guilty...
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order