3. Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
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stevec

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Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« on: October 11, 2024, 01:58:00 pm »
Hi All,

We have just received a PCN for exactly the same contravention described in this thread (52 Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles) i.e. turning into New Park Road (D), recorded on August 26th.

@cp8759, I'm tagging you as you made the last posts to the other thread in May this year. From those, it looks like the once solid defence of Lambeth not having GLA consent is no longer valid, at least until March 2025.

If I have understood that correctly, is there any other chance of appealing this PCN or should I cough up while it's still in the discounted period?

Thanks!
Steve
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cp8759

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2024, 11:47:48 pm »
@stevec as per the guidance here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ please post up the PCN you have received, it doesn't matter how similar you think it is to a previous case: for all we know there might be a printing error on your PCN that makes it invalid.

As a general rule, I can think of precisely zero scenarios where I'd advise someone to pay a moving traffic PCN without even trying a representation.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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Hippocrates

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2024, 09:29:53 am »
As per cp above: never cough up without making a representation as this is a sure way to join The Mugged Club!
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

stevec

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2024, 04:12:33 pm »
Got it.. thanks both of you for your replies!

Here is the front page of the PCN:



And here is a link to the location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/kVNdkEggoFyXBhmB7

On your point about not paying the PCN without first trying a representation, I thought if you appealed and were rejected, you ended up having to pay the full £130 rather than the discounted £65. Is that not the case?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 04:14:29 pm by stevec »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2024, 06:42:12 pm »
On your point about not paying the PCN without first trying a representation, I thought if you appealed and were rejected, you ended up having to pay the full £130 rather than the discounted £65. Is that not the case?

NO.  Homework: go onto their website and screenshot what it says and report back please.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 06:48:12 pm by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

mrmustard

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2024, 08:30:03 am »
Is the car leased and if so how long for and what type of lease? In fact, a copy of the entire lease with only your name and address covered would help us find a way out. There has to be a necessary degree of permanence which may not exist in your lease.

Forget about the discount, this forum is for people who want to fight ( unless we advise against it) which entails some risk but that is the cleverly designed system.
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I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

stevec

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2024, 04:22:58 pm »
Thanks for the homework @Hippocrates  :) . I see that if I make the informal challenge within 14 days from the date of issue, I will receive a discounted rate if my challenge is unsuccessful. So I have until October 17th to do this.

@mrmustard, the car is on a business contract hire lease which I tried to attach but got an 'upload folder is full' error so could post it to imgur and embed the links here if that would help.

It is a 48 month lease, due to end on 5/02/25.
Clause 5.2 states that "The Customer agrees to indemnify the Lessor from any fines, fees, charges, invoices or penatlies resulting from motoring offences or violation of traffic or parking regulations or restrictions".
I'm guessing this is not what you would have been looking for though?

I definitely count myself among those who want to fight as I hate paying PCNs, but if it seems like there is little chance of successfully challenging one, I'd prefer to pay the discounted amount than the full amount.

Any advice you can give will be gratefully received!
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mrmustard

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2024, 04:30:07 pm »
Please email the full lease to mrmustard@zoho.com so I can look for an escape route
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I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

stevec

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2024, 04:49:00 pm »
Done, thank you!
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Hippocrates

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2024, 11:16:32 pm »
Sorry in Kos; but, what does the screenshot say about the price increasing?
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

stevec

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2024, 11:28:12 pm »
@Hippocrates, ah, I see I did not read it closely enough and managed to miss the wording "You cannot make an informal challenge against a moving traffic or postal PCN".  As ours is a moving traffic violation, it seems we cannot make an informal challenge.

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mrmustard

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2024, 05:19:31 pm »
I have seen the Contract Hire master Agreement. What it says includes

2.13 - Not to take the vehicle out of the UK
2.14 - To keepe the vehicle free of lien
2.15 - Not to mortgage, pledge, loan, hire or part with ....the vehicle
9.1 - The Lessor may terminate the hiring with immediate effect either by notice in writing or by taking possession of the Vehicle
11.14 - Should the Customer decide to terminate ...
13.1 - At the option of the Lessor, The Vehicle may be replaced at any time by another...
21.2 - The Customer acknowledges and agrees that it has no title to or property in the Vehicle and that no title or property will pass to the Customer.

All those things taken together mean, in my opinion, that there isn't the encessary fegree of permance to allow the transfer of liability.

I would make representations on two short grounds:

1. The signage is inadequate, one coming on the restriction signs after a bend.
2. The council did not have the right to transfer liability as I never had, nor could have, any title in the vehicle and the council don't have a copy of the lease which would have enabled them to judge if the necessary degree of permanence existed.
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I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

stevec

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2024, 07:01:02 pm »
Wow, this is amazing @mrmustard, thank you!
What would your confidence levels be of an appeal on these grounds being successful?

How do I go about making those representations? Is there any point in my going through the informal challenge or will they simply reject it because it's a 'moving traffic violation'?

That being the case, do I need to wait until I have been issued a reminder then make the formal appeal?
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mrmustard

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2024, 07:12:58 pm »
You need to make representations now or the pcn value can increase. The council reject nearly everything, good and bad.
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I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.

stevec

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Re: Lambeth - 52 m Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain tyoes of vehicles - New Park Road (D)
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2024, 07:14:52 pm »
ah, I see. So I should just go ahead and submit that via the 'informal challenge' option on their website?
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