3. 20 mins no return
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20 mins no return
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Hi, would like to apologise if this was discussed previously.
Today (28/06/24) after a few phone calls was told that my car is in the newham compound. The contravention code is 30. The sign reads Mon - Sat 9 am - 5 pm Permit holders only 20 mins No return within 1 hr, however i have a residential permit. I told this to the compound worker and apparently it has to say “or 20 mins no return” he is telling me this because he has dealt with this many times. Im confused after he told me as i was pretty sure that this did not apply to me? I’ve attached a few pics, if anyone can advise before i appeal would be greatly appreciated. I had to pay £240 to release my car, will they refund me if i am in the right?

Thank You

I can’t seem to upload the pictures?
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #1 on: »
I have moved this as it seems to be a council ticket rather than a private one.

To help us help you, take a look at the following thread and provide all the information it asks for: READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**, This section is for council, TFL, Dart/Mersey/Tyne etc. cases

This also advises on how to use Imgur to upload images.
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #2 on: »
You need to upload a picture of the sign and the PCN (both sides). If you know when the car was towed, post that too.

If the sign said “or”, then permit holders would be allowed to park for as long as they want. Everyone else could only park for 20 minutes.

If there’s no “or”, that means permit holders are allowed to park for 20 minutes and everybody else isn’t allowed to park at all.

The good news is there’s nothing more to pay for a towing case so you might as well appeal all the way to the end.
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Ru on June 28, 2024, 08:36:48 pm
I had to pay £240 to release my car, will they refund me if i am in the right?
@Ru yes they will, but to get proper advice you need to read the guidance here and upload all the documents you were given at the car pound.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #4 on: »




« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 11:33:21 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #5 on: »
I've removed the duplicated content of your posts and embedded the images properly, you don't need to quote your opening post when you reply.

These are the council photos:













So the location is here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/w3K4pJJMVtPg9CeH7

Unfortunately the sign says that you can only park if you have a permit and you don't stay for more than 20 minutes, so it sounds like you might have misunderstood the restriction.

I'll get hold of the traffic order for the bay, in the meantime please post all sides of all pages of all the other documents (just personal data such as name, address, card details etc) so that we can look for procedural issues.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on July 01, 2024, 11:41:58 pm
I've removed the duplicated content of your posts and embedded the images properly, you don't need to quote your opening post when you reply.

Unfortunately the sign says that you can only park if you have a permit and you don't stay for more than 20 minutes, so it sounds like you might have misunderstood the restriction.
The sign means exactly as it says but I don't blame you for not understanding it as that has been quite common.

The idea is that any holder of a Newham permit, for ANY zone, can use these bays for 20 minutes; the idea being that it facilitates visits across the borough I guess. But the locations don't make a lot of sense, being mostly in residential areas and nowhere near any shops or facilities.

Hopefully we'll find some other reason to challenge; perhaps it being a lower level contravention and the lowest priority for towing.
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #7 on: »
The resident permit is only valid within the zone where you live. Any vehicle parked in a residents parking zone without a valid permit for that zone may receive a penalty charge notice.

https://www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits/resident-parking-permits-1/1

i have a residential permit.

As far as I can see, neither the Traffic Signs etc. regs nor the TSM makes any provision for the sign used.

OP, do you have any paperwork from the council regarding the do's and don'ts of residents' permits?

What paperwork were you given at the pound?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 11:24:52 am by H C Andersen »
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #8 on: »
Just at work right now I’ll upload the pound papers in a few.

On a side note i googled for this specific meaning and this was the same understanding i had “ https://consultation.eastsussex.gov.uk/economy-transport-environment/parkingrother2018/supporting_documents/Definitions.pdf”
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Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #9 on: »
@Ru but it's not the same:



The Newham sign does not say "or", and that completely changes the meaning. That's quite aside from the fact that the document you found is from East Sussex and the PCN is from the London Borough of Newham.

I can understand why it's confusing as this sort of sign is unusual (I've not seen one outside Newham), but if you actually read the words on the sign the intention is clear and unambiguous.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 20 mins no return
« Reply #10 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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