Author Topic: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN  (Read 229 times)

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Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
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I parked on a street a few Sundays ago when there was a match on. I had no idea there was a match on, I dont follow football. The sign had a mon-sat parking restriction, but then did mention event day restrictions of like 9am-10pm. I didn't see a single sign at any point mentioning there being an event day. I used this in my dispute that has been rejected and the reply was, in short, saying the onus is on me to check their website to see whether its an event day or not. I've used chatgpt for this and this is the counter argument, which i'm hoping someone can tell me if there's actually any basis for argument here.

1. I did not see any CPZ entry signs stating “Event Today”.

2. The council has produced no evidence that such signs were displayed on that date.

3. A bay sign stating “event days only” does not tell a motorist whether today is an event day.

4. Drivers are not required to check council websites to determine whether parking restrictions apply.

5. The signage therefore failed to adequately convey the restriction in force, and the contravention did not occur.

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Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
Please post the PCN and a GSV link to the exact location. Normally for these event restrictions, there are signs at the entrance to a zone, usually a CPZ. There have been loads of cases like yours, and some appeals won at London Tribunals, but you must be prepared to stand your ground and take them all the way to London Tribunals, and risk the full PCN penalty if you lose. Nothing to pay, of course, if you win. No additional costs either.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
I'm unsure if the below link works, but hopefully it does. It was on Colwith Road, Hammersmith.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4855322,-0.2228768,3a,75y,72.25h,91.5t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1sgcpWIZs5VIwS4vbAmVyYYA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-1.497115338182283%26panoid%3DgcpWIZs5VIwS4vbAmVyYYA%26yaw%3D72.25313803643621!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i40?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Having a hard time figuring out how to upload an image here. But the way i got to this road was by turning left onto Nella Road from Fulham Palace road, then right onto Rannoch Road, then right onto Colwith Road. I don't remember seeing any CPZ signs. Just the monday - saturday parking sign, with the event times below (again, i had no idea there was an event).

As for the PCN itself, i cant upload it but happy to provide any details you need. It was one that was placed on my screen by a warden.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
As for the PCN itself, i cant upload it but happy to provide any details you need. It was one that was placed on my screen by a warden.

Have a look at this post which will assist you in posting a link to the PCN.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #4 on: »

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
Thanks for that reply. Seems interesting. So two cases where one was accepted and one was rejected. I  already had one for this rejected but it just seemed like an auto reply. There were definitely no traditional CPZ signs on my way to where I parked, and there were definitely no event day signs. I also parked just two steets down from the appeal that got accepted.

Would I be able to use that every appeal in my appeal, if that makes sense?

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
OK, so I assume you drove north up Fulham Palace Road, (been along there quite a few times on a trolleybus back in the day, but anyway...).
So here is the completely barmy sign they have put up to tell you you are entering CPZ T :-
https://maps.app.goo.gl/KYj1qbLxmjzEVFx49
Would you notice that driving along ? No, thought not. You will see through the foliage that it has a slot at the bottom for event days. However, a bit further south near Fulham Cemetery, the signs are far, far, better: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YzjoQz4oWD1xDaGf6
and you would have passed these too. Whilst you parked in the next CPZ along, (this one is for Zone X), the event days are common to all the CPZs along here that have event day restrictions. Looking at their map of CPZ, the ones with event day restrictions are those on the west side of the Fulham Palace Road.
https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/parking/pay-and-display/map-controlled-parking-zones

So, have the council met their statutory duty under Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 ? My view is that it is arguable, because you did pass a sign giving the event days, but really the signs when you pass into Zone T, where you parked, are totally inadequate.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
I did drive North. That first sign you posted is facing south i believe, i also would have turned left before that point too. I believe I turned left before the hospital.

As for the other sign. I didnt see that when driving, with it being the other side of the road but yeah I see the argument. I guess my strongest argument is that there wasnt an event sign in the actual CPZ i parked in, with as you mentioned the only event days sign being in the CPZ prior?

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
Keep it simple and say that the CPZ sign you saw shortly before you turned left into Nella Road had no information on it about Event Days at all. Let them shoot themselves in the foot by saying the one on the right by the bus stop, (so likely to be hidden most times by buses), is the sign.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
Don't rush this - draft something here. I think the parking signs are not adequate as per the other thread.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #10 on: »
This is the initial response I got when I challenged it for that reason. The bothersome bit is the discount period. £160 is an absolutely ridiculous amount for a parking ticket which, right now i cant afford.

But my next step is it going to the environment and traffic adjudicator.


Why the PCN was issued?
This PCN was issued because the vehicle was parked in a shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required or without a telephone parking session for that place.
Your challenge

You have stated
I wish to challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice due to inadequate and unclear signage, and the absence of any indication that an event day restriction was in force.
No “Event Day Today” signs were displayed at the entry to the zone
I approached Colwith Road and did not see any “Event Day Today” signs at the Controlled Parking Zone entry points. These signs are a mandatory requirement for event-day enforcement, as they are the only means by which a motorist can know that additional restrictions apply.
If the council asserts that such signs were displayed, I request the following:
The exact locations of all event-day signs
Photographs showing they were visible and not obscured
Confirmation of the time at which they were switched to “Event Today”
Without these signs being clearly and prominently displayed, the event-day restriction cannot be enforced. This principle is well established in multiple London Tribunals decisions.
There is no way for a person who doesn't follow football to know that "event day" refers to a football match and there were absolutely no signs on that road to say that there was an event day

My findings
The vehicle was in controlled parking zone T. A ‘match day’ restriction scheme operates in zones T, X & Y (the area surrounding Fulham Football Club ground at Craven Cottage).
On the day of scheduled weekday evening fixtures as well as weekends, the hours of controlled parking are extended to 22:00 and 21:30. The parking bays in this area also have a two hour maximum stay for pay and display ticket holders & telephone parking on match days (At all other times the restrictions apply 09:00 to 17:00, Monday to Friday; with an 8 hour pay and display & telephone parking session limit).
The PCN was issued on the date and at the time above in a shared parking permit/pay and display bay restricted until 22:00 due to resident priority football match restrictions. During a period of 8 minutes no activity was seen at the vehicle.
There are signs in each street which show the parking restrictions. Drivers have a responsibility to check for parking signs and markings and to park in accordance with them.
Please see the image below of the signage which was taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) at the time of issuing the PCN.
The match dates on which these extended restrictions will apply are also advertised on the Council’s website.
Please refer to the following links on the Council’s website:
https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/parking/pay-and-display/parking-zone-times-and-charges
https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/parking/pay-and-display/match-day-parking-craven-cottage
The onus is on the driver to ensure their vehicle is parked in compliance at all times, including any temporary amendments that may apply, particularly when parking in an area where event days are common.
The CEO has a legal obligation to issue a PCN to any vehicle seen parking in contravention; regrettably, as the above vehicle was parked in contravention, this Council cannot find any valid reason to waive the Charge. I am therefore satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued.
My decision
I have considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #11 on: »
Keep it simple and say that the CPZ sign you saw shortly before you turned left into Nella Road had no information on it about Event Days at all. Let them shoot themselves in the foot by saying the one on the right by the bus stop, (so likely to be hidden most times by buses), is the sign.

This is essentially what I said, and asked for them to show evidence of where the event day signs were. Which you can see from my response, they didn't actually state.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #12 on: »
OK I didn't realise you'd already challenged.

When does the discount offer end. If you decide to try formal reps they will probably again reoffer the discount on rejection but you can try stronger reps.

If it goes to the tribunal they sometimes fail to provide proper evidence for the adjudicator.

Here in my view it's not just the entry signs but the parking place sign as it provides no clue that an event day is not Mon-Fri and no info plate saying how you'd find out about event days, and does the 2 hours apply to permit holders too?

Other councils are better at event day signage although none is perfect. 

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #13 on: »
14 day discount period ends 14 days from yesterday. So I have time. I agree on the signs being confusing. I also used that in my initial argument.

Re: Hammersmith and Fulham PCN
« Reply #14 on: »
They have deliberately ignored the point about signs with the event days because they know the signs for CPZ T are inadequate. They have also given you another point to make, by saying you should check their website. Appeals have been won on this, because adjudicators apply the law and that law is that the signs must reflect the traffic order.