3. Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
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Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
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Summary:
Stopped for about 7 seconds on a yellow box on Blackwall Lane outside a brewery - so not a valid junction in my opinion

Appeal:

On the basis of the appeal below, I believed I had a good case for it to be cancelled and only found this website once they rejected my appeal.

See full letter below but appealed on the following basis:

1. Yellow box is invalid - it's on a road at the entrace to a private business.
2. Markings are faded
3. Only stopped on yellow box for 7-8 seconds

Appeal Letter




PCNs & Rejection Letter




Location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VJAkayGRBYxjYL4J6


Similar
I found this https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/yellow-box-junction-ilford-ley-street/ and believe my case is even more iron clad
« Last Edit: June 03, 2025, 08:59:51 pm by ringzer »
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #1 on: »
IMO this will 100% win at adjudication and costs could well be awarded in your favour

If it is your intention to appeal then register your appeal with London Tribunals

In the box asking for details write only this

The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #2 on: »
Great, thank you. I didn't realise costs could be awarded, but in this case I believe it would be justified as it is spurious for them to reject. I was pretty close to just paying the £65 and move on with my life, but the solid case (reiterated by you!) meant I decided not to pay.

Yes I will appeal to London Tribunals and will include the text you shared.

While researching the original appeal letter, I noticed on the London Tribunals search page that I couldn't find any cases in Greenwich for my location. I suspect the cases aren't registered properly as I find it surprising that have been appealed.
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #3 on: »
Video. You almost had room ahead to exit looks like.

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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: stamfordman on June 03, 2025, 10:09:41 pm
Video. You almost had room ahead to exit looks like.



Possibly, but still would have overhung a fraction. I guess the point is, you rightly don't expect a junction along a straight road with business entrances along it.
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #5 on: »
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qVbDuydmoN4fyyvK9

Is a box junction permitted outside a brewery?

https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box

gives this advises this wording as a  base for a representation.

Quote
Schedule 7, Part 9, 11 (6) of the TSRGD 20016 sets out the permitted locations for yellow boxes. In addition Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 defines a "road" as: “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”.  This location does not meet any of these criteria and it is thus an illegal yellow box.



Is this advice sound?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2025, 11:40:11 am by John U.K. »
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #6 on: »
Only places a box junction is allowed

Schedule 9 part 11 para 6

(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—

(a)at a junction between two or more roads;

(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;

(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or

(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on June 05, 2025, 11:05:35 am
Only places a box junction is allowed

Schedule 9 part 11 para 6

(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—

(a)at a junction between two or more roads;

(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;

(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or

(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station; and

The annoying thing is that I included all of this in my representation to the PCN in the first place, but they ignored it. 

"- According to Section 192 of the road traffic 1988 a road has a definition of “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”
- As noted in the Location on the PCN itself, the junction is immediately outside a private business “Meantime Brewery”. As per a photo from Google Street view, this entrance is not a road, but rather the entrance to a business."
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #8 on: »
Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.

Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: John U.K. on June 05, 2025, 04:49:23 pm
Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.

Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.

Yes I will apply for a video call appeal.

I had one final question on what to specify in the appeal details. Other than the text as per reply #1, should I attach my letter of appeal to the council now? Or can I upload it later (I believe I can)
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: ringzer on June 05, 2025, 05:26:02 pm
Quote from: John U.K. on June 05, 2025, 04:49:23 pm
Follow PMB's advice and register the appeal as per Reply #1.

Make sure you opt for a personal (= by telephone or video-link) hearing and not postal.

Yes I will apply for a video call appeal.

I had one final question on what to specify in the appeal details. Other than the text as per reply #1, should I attach my letter of appeal to the council now? Or can I upload it later (I believe I can)

You can add it later (as you can add any further points), but a copy should be included in the Council Evidence Pack, which you should revceive by about a week before the hearing date.

Register the appeal and come back here with the Tribunal's letter giving you a hearing date when you receive it.
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #11 on: »
add nothing at all other than what i advise
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on June 05, 2025, 10:25:55 pm
add nothing at all other than what i advise

I have done this before and cases i drafted caused TfL to stop putting boxes at bus depots and stating on their website that they could
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on June 03, 2025, 09:17:46 pm
In the box asking for details write only this

The box junction does not conform to the requirements of TSRGD schedule 9 part 11 para 6 . I will suppy more detail at a later date before any hearing

Submitted appeal asking for personal video hearing.

I will report back once a hearing has been scheduled (if at all!)

Thank you very much.
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Re: Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10
« Reply #14 on: »
Appeal has been accepted and video call scheduled for 14th August 2025. I'm 99% sure I only asked for a Saturday hearing, but they have a Thursday.

Presumably the council will now be informed of my appeal and can choose to proceed or withdraw - is this correct? And is there any hard and fast rule about when councils withdraw the PCN? Do they often withdraw close to the appeal date?

I'll leave it a few weeks but if it looks like they want to proceed I will likely have to reschedule as I'll be on holiday that week.
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  3. Greenwich - 31J Stopping in Yellow Box, Blackwall Lane SE10