3. Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #15 on: »
Notice of Rejection!

Received the NoR, in which the LA completely turned a blind eye to my ground of representations, as recommended by @Hippocrates, and didn't mention a single word about it. Is this act not considered 'frivolous, vexatious or wholly unreasonable'?

NoR_1:

https://ibb.co/MxvXh3Mn

NoR_2:

https://ibb.co/TDgQzvCZ

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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #16 on: »
I made this argument to the TPT with regards to a fail to concider It won the day as the adjudicator did not find on the other arguments


Extract from the appeal decision by the adjudicator

3. When Mr Yousef made both informal and formal representations to the council in respect of the PCN he referred to the grounds of appeal as detailed above but in rejecting those challenges the council did not address the limb of his appeal that was concerned with the method of payment using a premium rate telephone number. It was therefore Mr Allen’s submission that in failing to respond to this ground of appeal there had been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council, a further ground of appeal and that the PCN should not then be enforced. Mr Allen provided case law in support of his submission, specifically The King (On the application of Halton Borough Council) and Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon [2023] EWHC 303 Admin, provided at evidence tab 23 and it was his view I should determine the appeal without adjourning to enable the council to respond to his submissions in these respects.
4. In considering Mr Allen’s submissions it was my view that the council should have a further opportunity to address the issues relating to the use of a premium phone line to pay the PCN and the issue of procedural impropriety and I adjourned the hearing to enable the council to respond by January 8th 2024. To date the council has not responded and so I have considered the appeal on the basis of the evidence that is available to me.
5. In The King (On the application of Halton Borough Council) and Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon [2023] Mr Justice Fordham considered the extent to which there had been procedural impropriety on the part of the council and or their agents in the consideration of representations made to them following the issue of PCNs and he said, “The "procedural impropriety" enquiry is straightforward and clear-cut. It would ask: has there been consideration at all?” and whilst the council did deal with the other limbs of Mr Yousef’s appeal, I cannot find there has been any consideration of the submissions in respect of the premium phone line and for this reason alone I would find there has been a procedural impropriety and I would allow the appeal.
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on June 07, 2025, 10:10:37 pm
I made this argument to the TPT with regards to a fail to concider It won the day as the adjudicator did not find on the other arguments


Extract from the appeal decision by the adjudicator

3. When Mr Yousef made both informal and formal representations to the council in respect of the PCN he referred to the grounds of appeal as detailed above but in rejecting those challenges the council did not address the limb of his appeal that was concerned with the method of payment using a premium rate telephone number. It was therefore Mr Allen’s submission that in failing to respond to this ground of appeal there had been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council, a further ground of appeal and that the PCN should not then be enforced. Mr Allen provided case law in support of his submission, specifically The King (On the application of Halton Borough Council) and Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon [2023] EWHC 303 Admin, provided at evidence tab 23 and it was his view I should determine the appeal without adjourning to enable the council to respond to his submissions in these respects.
4. In considering Mr Allen’s submissions it was my view that the council should have a further opportunity to address the issues relating to the use of a premium phone line to pay the PCN and the issue of procedural impropriety and I adjourned the hearing to enable the council to respond by January 8th 2024. To date the council has not responded and so I have considered the appeal on the basis of the evidence that is available to me.
5. In The King (On the application of Halton Borough Council) and Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon [2023] Mr Justice Fordham considered the extent to which there had been procedural impropriety on the part of the council and or their agents in the consideration of representations made to them following the issue of PCNs and he said, “The "procedural impropriety" enquiry is straightforward and clear-cut. It would ask: has there been consideration at all?” and whilst the council did deal with the other limbs of Mr Yousef’s appeal, I cannot find there has been any consideration of the submissions in respect of the premium phone line and for this reason alone I would find there has been a procedural impropriety and I would allow the appeal.

Much obliged, @Pastmybest.

Prior to receiving your post, I was hesitating between paying the £80 and going to the Tribunal. Now I have decided to take it all the way to the Tribunal.
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #18 on: »
Take your pick as to your representative.  ;D I have made a formal complaint under The Nolan Principles.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 08, 2025, 07:30:18 am
Take your pick as to your representative.  ;D I have made a formal complaint under The Nolan Principles.

I will not be doing any cases at tribunal whilst i continue my recuperation so take it Hippo, use the quote if yu want or the case is on cp's file also the high court ruling
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #20 on: »
It may be slightly late in the day to introduce this point but see this PATAS case that I won n a YBJ because the CCTV footage cut out before it recorded the car leaving the YBJ - as in your case. The adjudicator - Carl Teper - made quite a point of it but admittedly I was in the YBJ for a rather shorter time than you (as recorded on the footage). See what Hippocrates thinks.

Quote
PCN   GT55538498
Contravention date   14 Jun 2013
Contravention time   16:50:00
Contravention location   Purley Way/Croydon Road
Penalty amount   GBP 130.00
Contravention   Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date   -
Decision Date   30 Nov 2013
Adjudicator   Carl Teper
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons   The Appellant has attended his appeal.



The authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Purley Way/Croydon Road on 14 June 2013 at 16.50.



The Appellant denies the contravention advancing a number of points.



However, I have allowed this appeal for the following reasons:



First, I find that the stopping, if it be that, is hardly perceptible.



Second, and more importantly the vehicle is still moving out of the box junction when the CCTV footage stops. The Adjudicator must see the entire driving of the vehicle in and out of the box junction. I find this to be a serious omission.



Third, in any event have considering the driving of the Appellant I do not find that this contravention is proved because I am not satisfied that there was any sufficient stopping that justified the issuing and prosecution of this contravention.



Taking these matters together I find that it would be unjust and inequitable to uphold this Penalty Charge Notice, which I find, is not proved.



The appeal is allowed.
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 08, 2025, 07:30:18 am
Take your pick as to your representative.  ;D




Tough decision to make. ;D


Quote from: Hippocrates on June 08, 2025, 07:30:18 am
I have made a formal complaint under The Nolan Principles.


Please enlighten me. What are the Nolan Principles, and what was the formal complaint about?
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: Chaseman on June 08, 2025, 08:25:51 pm


Second, and more importantly the vehicle is still moving out of the box junction when the CCTV footage stops. The Adjudicator must see the entire driving of the vehicle in and out of the box junction. I find this to be a serious omission.





Thanks for that @Chaseman.

I am afraid my car was stationary inside the YBJ for about 14 seconds before the CCTV footage stops.

I wonder if the argument presented by @The Slithy Tove can also be used:

Quote from: The Slithy Tove on May 03, 2025, 11:42:26 am
It could also be argued that the exit was clear (i.e. no offence) when the car entered the box junction. It could easily have slotted in the left hand side of the lane, partially alongside the black vehicle. (Why don't people take the obvious "escape routes" rather than stopping in the box junction?)
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #23 on: »
send a PM to hippocrates from his post he has it in mind to represent you. I sadly cannot as I am unwell and not going to commit to something I may not be able to do on the day. I will however draft your skeleton arguments if Hippo is unable to help
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: Pastmybest on June 10, 2025, 12:51:00 pm
send a PM to hippocrates from his post he has it in mind to represent you. I sadly cannot as I am unwell and not going to commit to something I may not be able to do on the day. I will however draft your skeleton arguments if Hippo is unable to help

Wishing you a speedy recovery.
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #25 on: »
Hi

I am about to submit my appeal. Please can I have a draft for the grounds of appeal.

Many thanks.
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #26 on: »
Just picking up this thread. If you want me to represent you, I would rather file the appeal and would need an unredacted NOR please.
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 23, 2025, 04:33:41 am
Just picking up this thread. If you want me to represent you, I would rather file the appeal and would need an unredacted NOR please.

I PMed you. PLease check your inbox.

By the way, I was on the London Tribunal website. There is no option for the "procedural impropriety" ground. All the arguments mentioned in the post, would come under what ground?
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote from: mitaab on June 25, 2025, 08:23:39 pm
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 23, 2025, 04:33:41 am
Just picking up this thread. If you want me to represent you, I would rather file the appeal and would need an unredacted NOR please.

I PMed you. PLease check your inbox.

By the way, I was on the London Tribunal website. There is no option for the "procedural impropriety" ground. All the arguments mentioned in the post, would come under what ground?

Don,t try to teach granny how to suck eggs if hippo is doing this then let him
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Re: Code:31 J Entering & Stopping in a Box Junction
« Reply #29 on: »
The FTLA team!

You must be the most "love to hate" people by the local authorities as you continue to make holes in their revenue purse.
The Enforcement Authority has informed the Tribunal that it will not contest my appeal against the
Penalty Charge Notice, and I am no longer liable for it. 

@Pastmybest & @Hippocrates, much obliged! You turned what initially appeared to be a lost cause into a winner.

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