Author Topic: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay  (Read 7567 times)

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Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #15 on: »
You've left your reg and PCN number visible at the bottom again! I've removed the attachment.

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #16 on: »
Oh Dam !!! I didn't notice the bottom part,  thx

I've re-attached it without the bottom slip

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Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #17 on: »
Any chance of a version that is in focus please?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #18 on: »
Sorry trying to find the original invoice so i can rescan and send it. Either me or my wife have misplaced it bit of a domestic dispute going on who has. I'll try to find it

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #19 on: »
I've had to shorten the suggested appeal as it only accepts 2000 characters. Strangely it includes spaces between words also as characters in its count


Below is what I am planning to submit. Is that OK ?

"
After reviewing provided photos , I disagree with your operative’s assessment that the driver parked outside of the bay. The vehicle was positioned on the line, not beyond it. Additionally, as demonstrated in the photos, the neighbouring car was parked in a similar manner which obviously necessitated that the driver park as far to the right as possible to maintain a safe distance between vehicles.

It is clear the bays provided are not sufficiently wide for safe parking, as illustrated in the photos. The inadequate width of the bays makes it challenging for any driver to park without encroaching on the lines. Bay lines are worn and faded lack of clear demarcation contributes significantly to the difficulty the driver would have parking in a precise manner.

The signage in the car park is inadequate and fails to comply with the strict requirements as required under PoFA 2012 9(2)(c) to adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge and the other facts that made them payable. This is a breach of the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) 19.4.

You have provided a photo of a sign, strangely it doesn’t show the nearest and only sign in that section of the car park. I have photo evidence showing the nearest sign was surrounded by goods which restricted access and visibility.

Signs breach the BPA CoP 19.3. Specific parking-terms signs are supposed to inform drivers what terms and conditions are, including parking charges.. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. None of the signs comply with those requirements.

In conclusion, based on the inadequate space for safe parking, poor maintenance, inadequate signage and, as the registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver because your NtK does not fully comply with the strict requirements of PoFA 2012. I suggest you cancel the PCN or issue me with a POPLA code where we both know will be cancelled."


Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #20 on: »
Doesn’t it let you upload a pdf with your full appeal? If so, just put “see uploaded PDF” in the text box.

Otherwise, what you have is ok. I wouldn’t put too much effort into a Plan B appeal with this lot of scammers.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #21 on: »
I've got a response back from UKPC and they have rejected my appeal

Attached is image of the first page of the letter and also pdf document of the whole letter


Should I now appeal to POPLA ?

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Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #22 on: »
It is not surprising that UKPC would reject your appeal. You should appeal to POPLA and you have 32 days, not the 28 days stated to respond. There is no advantage to delaying the POPLA appeal but do make sure that you set it out properly.

POPLA will not consider any mitigation. They will only consider breaches of the BPA CoP and other law. You have already explained those breaches in your first appeal so they should form the basis of your POPLA appeal.

Mention each breach and then expand on why and how they have breached each point. Lead the POPLA assessor by the nose to each point. Use simple language as though you are writing a Janet and John book for early learners.

For example, you stated in your original appeal:"The signage in the car park is inadequate and fails to comply with the strict requirements as required under PoFA 2012 9(2)(c ) to adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge and the other facts that made them payable. This is a breach of the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) 19.4." Expand on why failure to "...adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge..." as required under PoFA 9(2)(c ) is also a breach of the BPA CoP section 19.4.

You need to look at the BPA CoP and can do so here:

BPA Approved Operator Code of Practice v9 and PoFA here:

The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4

Once you have something please post it here so we can critique it and adjust if necessary.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 12:43:43 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #23 on: »
Below is my initial draft. For the last paragraph is there any rule I can quote that parking bays should be sufficiently wide for safe parking ?



The relevant sign was positioned quite far up and surrounded by bags of compost from local store therefore  not easy to access or read. Strangely the parking company did not provide photograph of this particular sign ,the nearest and only one in this car park section,  but instead from different section of the car park. Blocked access to the signage failed to comply with terms of  "BPA Approved Operator Code of Practice". Notably on the two points below
- "Signs must be conspicuous and legible"
- "they are easy to see, read and understand."

Access to  signage was inadequate and therefore failed to comply with the strict requirements as required under PoFA 2012 9(2)(c) to adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge and the other facts that made them payable. This is a breach of the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) 19.4. I have attached a photograph of the sign where access was blocked

Bay lines are worn and faded breaching the "Surface markings – delineated parking bays" condition 19.11. Lack of clear demarcation contributes significantly to the difficulty the driver would have parking in a precise manner.

The driver did not park outside of the bay. The vehicle was positioned on the line, not beyond it. Additionally, as demonstrated in the photos, the neighbouring car was parked in a similar manner which obviously necessitated that the driver park as far to the right as possible to maintain a safe distance between vehicles.

It is clear in this case the bays provided are not sufficiently wide for safe parking, as illustrated in the photos. The inadequate width of the bays makes it challenging for any driver to park without encroaching on the lines.

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #24 on: »
Do you have or can you get some photos of the signs that were obscured?

What about considering some of these POPLA appeal points you could use?

Non-compliance with BPA CoP 19.2 and Appendix B - Entrance signs
Non-compliance with BPA CoP 19.3 & 19.9 - Specific parking-terms signage
Non-compliance with BPA CoP 20.3 - Charges, and terms and conditions
Non-compliance with BPA CoP 22.4 - Use of photographic evidence technology
Non-compliance with BPA CoP 7 - Written authorisation of the landowner
No Registered Keeper liability
The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate
No planning permission from the Council for Pole-mounted ANPR cameras and no advertising consent for signage
Pre-conviction penalties are unlawful in English law
Lack of standing
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #25 on: »
I can't seem to upload the photo as it says the folder is full but if you look at the image I uploaded on the 7th May in this thread it shows the sign surrounded by bags of compost

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #26 on: »
You'll need to use a third party site like Imgur to upload any more images. Upload space on here is very limited.

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #27 on: »
Ok but the image is uploaded in this thread on the 7th May. One how the sign is surrounded by bags of compost and the other shows the wording on the signage. I think I had to stand on the bags to get close photo of the sign

In regard to the other suggested conditions

Non-compliance with BPA CoP 19.2 and Appendix B - Entrance signs
-----  will need to check if there we entrance signs

Non-compliance with BPA CoP 19.3 & 19.9 - Specific parking-terms signage
----- think there might be some mileage on 19.9 i.e. "there must be at least one sign containing the
terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without
needing to leave the vehicle". Can't recall seeing one does it have to be in the same section of the car park ?

Non-compliance with BPA CoP 20.3 - Charges, and terms and conditions
---- if you look at the sign it does specify the fine amount not sure I can use this one

Non-compliance with BPA CoP 22.4 - Use of photographic evidence technology
---- ANPR wasn't used just normal photos. Not sure on what point I would argue a case on 22.4?  It says must comply by Data Protection, be registered with the Information Commissioner and follow DVLA requirements for data. I don't have any evidence to suggest that none of those are true

Non-compliance with BPA CoP 7 - Written authorisation of the landowner
No Registered Keeper liability
Pre-conviction penalties are unlawful in English law
Lack of standing
----- Not sure if there is anything from the above I could make a case I assume they must be authorised

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #28 on: »
Apologies for delay in response unfortunately got laid off and have been going through some personal challenges but now more determined not to have to pay this fine

Below is what I plan to send to POPLA. Is that OK ? I assume POPLA will allow me to upload photos and they have access to the photos the parking company has taken ?


Appeal for Parking Fine to POPLA

Dear POPLA Adjudicator,

I am writing to appeal a parking fine issued to me for allegedly parking outside of a designated bay. I believe the fine should be overturned for the following reasons:

1. Inadequate Signage
1.1. Poor Visibility and Accessibility of Signs
The relevant signage was positioned too high and was surrounded by bags of compost from a nearby store, making it difficult to access or read. Notably, the parking company did not provide a photograph of this particular sign, which was the nearest and only one in this section of the car park. Instead, they provided photographs from a different section. This is a violation of the BPA Code of Practice, specifically:

Section 19.3: "Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read, and understand."
1.2. Non-Compliance with PoFA 2012 Section 9(2)(c)
The blocked access to the signage fails to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Section 9(2)(c), which requires that the terms of the parking charge be adequately brought to the attention of the driver. This constitutes a breach of the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) 19.1. I have attached a photograph showing the sign with blocked access.

1.3. Non-Compliance with BPA CoP 19.9 - Specific Parking-Terms Signage
According to BPA CoP 19.9, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. I did not see any such sign meeting this requirement.

2. Poor Condition and Inadequate Width of Parking Bays
2.1. Worn and Faded Bay Lines
The bay lines in the car park are worn and faded, breaching the condition stated in BPA CoP 19.11 regarding "Surface markings – delineated parking bays." The lack of clear demarcation significantly contributes to the difficulty a driver would have in parking precisely within the bay.

2.2. Insufficient Bay Width
The bays provided are not sufficiently wide for safe parking. According to the BPA Code of Practice, Section 28.3, parking areas should be clearly marked and adequately spaced:

28.3: "You should lay out the parking area so that drivers can at all times have a fair opportunity to park their vehicles and meet the terms and conditions of parking."
The inadequate width of the bays, as illustrated in the attached photographs, makes it challenging for any driver to park without encroaching on the lines. This condition made it necessary for me to park as far to the right as possible to maintain a safe distance from the neighboring vehicle, which was also parked on or near the line.

3. Vehicle Position
3.1. Accurate Positioning
The vehicle was not parked outside of the bay; it was positioned on the line, not beyond it. The photographs demonstrate that the neighboring car was parked in a similar manner, necessitating that I park as far to the right as possible to maintain a safe distance between the vehicles.

Based on the above points, I respectfully request that the parking fine be overturned due to the inadequate signage, poor condition of the bay lines, and the insufficient width of the bays. These factors made it unreasonably difficult for me to comply with the parking terms and conditions.

Thank you for considering my appeal.

Re: UKPC Fine for car not being in bay
« Reply #29 on: »
A PCN is not a “fine”. It is an invoice. The keeper/driver has not committed any offence. This is a civil matter in contract law. Please don’t call it a “fine”.

You should be sending the POPLA appeal as a PDF file. You can embed images into a PDF file.

List your main points at the beginning and then go through each point individually.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain