3. FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
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FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
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Saw a video of a Manchester City enforcement officer asking dog walker if they have a poo bag.
Apparently it is an offence not to be have one if you are walking a dog in certain areas.

As a responsible dog owner I always have bags on me and my worst nightmare is the dog pooing and I can't pick it up.

I get the principle of fining if you don't pick it up, but fining if you can't produce a means of picking up poo, is that enforceable/legal?

If it happened to me I'd just say I'll use my sock 😉
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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #1 on: »
or the CEOs hat
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Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man
Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #2 on: »
Another (mis)use of a public spaces protection order? I’m not sure they have the vires to require the production of proof (i.e. you must produce a poo bag on demand). It’s ridiculous.
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I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.
Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #3 on: »
It depends on the PSPO, HMG reckon that carrying poo bags and a scoop (I don't own one, handling my own dog's poo through a bag isn't a problem) can be required by the PSPO.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/public-spaces-protection-orders  (enforcement is by £100 on the spot fines, or risk upto £1000 in Court)


My own Council (Walsall) have one PSPO, covering the town centre, and the relevant section of must dos is

Quote
It is ordered that the following specified things are done by persons carrying on specified activities in this restricted area.

1. Any person in charge of a dog in a public place must keep the dog on a lead or otherwise under physical control at all times.


I presume that they could insert a point about carrying the means to clear up any dog fouling at all times in this section, and anything else that isn't discriminatory that they feel like- wearing an upper body covering (as well as a lower body covering) springs to mind.


The BBC reported that someone was fined for no poo bags https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpzxnl7l9o

I recall reading a thread somewhere about an owner being fined because they had used their last bag clearing up and no longer had the means to clear up as required, but I can't track it down.


EDIT:

I don't know why I didn't think of this in the first place, but Manchester publish their PSPOs https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/438586/dog_fouling/category/1732/control_of_dogs


and indeed it does state

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A person in charge of a dog on land specified in the Schedule to this Order must have with him an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces deposited by that dog forthwith unless :-

    (a)    he has reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or
    (b)    the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to his failing to do so.

The obligation is complied with if, after a request from an authorised officer or constable, the person in charge of the dog produces an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:54:38 am by facade »
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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #4 on: »
SP's point was not that the PSPO didn't purport to give themselves the power to issue fines for failing to prove that they had a poo bag to hand, but whether the enabling primary legislation provided such powers. Secondary legislation cannot do what the enabling legislation does not provide for it to be able to do.
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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #5 on: »
Obviously I bow to those with Legal Qualifications, but to my reading, section 59 of the Anti Social Behaviour Crime and Policing act 2014 does provide for making it a requirement to carry something to clean up after your dog, provided that:

There is a persistent problem with dog fouling in that area (would be stated in the order)

It is reasonable for a person in charge of a dog to carry the means to clean up after it (I would agree that it is, sitting typing with half a dozen bags in my pocket)

The justification for it being that having the means to clean up after your dog demonstrably would
Quote
reduce that detrimental effect or to reduce the risk of its continuance, occurrence or recurrence
as not having anything to clean it up would either mean it would be left there, or you'd have to pick it up in your bare hands (unlikely), or as Glitch suggested, in your sock! (again, unlikely unless there was a suitable enforcer watching you)




https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/12/section/59




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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #6 on: »
I see the point of my post has eluded most people.
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I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.
Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: facade on Today at 01:46:10 pm
Obviously I bow to those with Legal Qualifications, but to my reading, section 59 of the Anti Social Behaviour Crime and Policing act 2014 does provide for making it a requirement to carry something to clean up after your dog
It being a requirement to carry something to clean up after your dog is not necessarily the same thing as it being a requirement to prove to a council employee who stops you in the street that you are carrying such items.
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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: Southpaw82 on Today at 01:51:00 pm
I see the point of my post has eluded most people.

That was the key question for me. Seeing someone spit, or dropping litter, or not picking up your dog's poo is understandable.

Being able to produce a poo bag is not proof you are going to use it.

Why not insist people have a bag to spit in or to carry their litter, or fine people just for chewing gum in case they spit it out?

Or, empty your pockets to see if there is anything on your person that could become litter.

It seems a step too far. crime prevention enforcement!
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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #9 on: »
Presumably under the "reasonable excuse" provision you could argue that you had used the two bags you brought with you and the dog never usually craps more than twice. I don't know if you could use the same provision to argue that your dog only craps in your back garden and never in the street.

I'm glad I don't own a dog.

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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #10 on: »

Quote
Obligations on persons with dogs:
4. Fouling

If a dog defecates at any time on land specified in the Schedule to this Order a person who is in charge of the dog at the time must remove the faeces from the land forthwith unless -

(a) he has reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or
(b) the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to his failing to do so.

5. Means to pick up

A person in charge of a dog on land specified in the Schedule to this Order must have with him an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces deposited by that dog forthwith unless :-

(a)    he has reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or
(b)    the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to his failing to do so.

The obligation is complied with if, after a request from an authorised officer or constable, the person in charge of the dog produces an appropriate means to pick up dog faeces.

Exemptions

Nothing in this Order shall apply to a disabled person (within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010) whose disability restricts his ability to comply with the Order and the dog is their guide dog or assistance dog.

For the purpose of this Order:
(a)    Restricted Area means the land designated in the Schedule to this Order.
(b)    A person who habitually has a dog in his possession shall be taken to be in charge of the dog at any time unless at that time some other person is in charge of the dog.
(c)    Placing the faeces in a receptacle on the land which is provided for the purpose, or for the disposal of waste, shall be sufficient removal from the land.
(d)    Being unaware of the defecation (whether by reason of not being in the vicinity or otherwise) shall not be a reasonable excuse for failing to remove the faeces.
(e)    "an authorised officer " means an employee, partnership agency or contractor of Manchester City Council who is authorised in writing by Manchester City Council for the purposes of giving directions under the Order.
(f)    An assistance dog, in general, is one that is trained to aid or assist a disabled person.
(g)    An appropriate means is defined as any poop scoop bag, disposal bag or other suitable container for disposal of dog faeces. By way of guidance a trouser or coat or other pocket is not such an item. Neither is a handbag, rucksack, purse or sports bag.

They seem to be very specific about what is not an appropriate means, therefore hat and sock would definitely be worth arguing over.
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Re: FPN for dog walker not carrying a poo bag
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: NewJudge on Today at 05:06:01 pm
Presumably under the "reasonable excuse" provision you could argue that you had used the two bags you brought with you and the dog never usually craps more than twice. I don't know if you could use the same provision to argue that your dog only craps in your back garden and never in the street.

I'm glad I don't own a dog.

It'll be interesting to hear the different excuses people come up with. Sounds like a minefield.
Always carry several poo bags.
Speaking from experience, scraping up dog diarrhea from tarmac leaves residue. Does that mean a fine?

Owning a dog can be a real PITA at times, but overall me and the missus find it very rewarding. Certainly gets me out every day.
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