Author Topic: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting .... (Read 1351 times)

cybotic · « **on:** January 26, 2025, 06:18:05 pm »

In August I got x7 speeding tickets over the course of three grim days.
Offences were spread over 10 days, all on my way home from work, all on the same stretch of the A40 in London. Limited to 30 mph.

FWIW that stretch of road is an average speed check zone, and I'd been pootleing at 30mph along for months - watching loads of people ZOOM past. This is a raised three lane highway, with no junctions - Gradually I figured the cameras must have been off, and I let my speed raise. Typically around 34/35 mph. Cameras surely were off for a period - Then one day they turned back on again!

I do not dispute them - I knew I was chancing it!

So - I'm getting likely 21 points to add to my licence.. Already had 3 points from a few years back - So the total could be double what you loose your licence for!

This is the course of events since then...
I returned all together (by reg. post) and paid all seven immediately (£700!!

)

I got a written receipts for just 5 of the 7 of them
I later found that two of the £100 fines were reimbursed to my account (I got no related correspondence, so can't say categorically which tickets these are for)

In turn, this led to ...

For the first of these offences I did a speed awareness course.
For three of these offences I've received an SJP notice - each SJP relates to a single ticket number (URN?) only
I submitted an 'online plea' for each SJP, and clicked 'guilty' on each of these (I provided no written excuse/explanations)
This leaves 3 out of the seven tickets unaccounted for. Two might be the ones that were refunded ?! but that would still leave one unaccounted for.

Result of the three court cases - (so far)...

The first case resulted in four points and a fine of £794, totalling £1212 :o
The second has issued a 'Notice of proposed driving disqualification'
Ive heard nothing back from the third (but only submitted recently on Jan 21st)

I've not yet taken any action regarding (1) & (2) above (ie paying teh fine and responding to the 'Notice of proposed driving disqualification')

"Failed to satisfy the requirements"?
One thing i noticed on all of the three SJPs ... it states the following:

Quote

"The driver/rider failed to satisfy the requirements of the Fixed Penalty, the Fixed Penalty was paid, but they failed to provide their license details for electronic endorsement and a refund was requested"
"The driver/rider did not satisfy the requirements of the Fixed Penalty offer within the specified timeframe. As a result the offer of a Fixed Penalty has been withdrawn"

Both of these statements are incorrect. In all cases I did provide my licence details, and in all cases I did so within the required timeframe.
In fact , the SJPs come with a copy of the form originally submitted form - which clearly shows I have provided my licence details.
Is something messed up here, by either me or them?

But wait... There's more!
*Ahem!* this is a bit awkward.. I've since been flashed while driving my car in November. ::) (24mph in a 20 FWIW)
This was replied-to and processed quickly, and got me another three points on my licence.

Points recap
THis is where I stand today with points : TEN POINTS: three old ones, three from the car, and four from the first court case:

	Points	Offence	Penalty point expiry	Endorsement removal
Old	3	23rd Jan 2022	23rd Jan 2025	23rd Jan 2026
Car	3	6th Oct 2024	6th Oct 2027	6th Oct 2028
Court	4	21st Jan 2025	18th Jul 2027	18th Jul 2028

What happens next?
Well - that's where I am up to right now..! - £1712 down, with one outstanding SJP, two mystery maybe refunded SJPs, two current court cases, and one outstanding court case!!! *phew!*

Here's a 'few' key questions that I really need help understanding please:

What caused two of the original £100 payments to be refunded? Why no correspondence?
Are these tickets all being considered/reviewed in isolation, or 'together' ? (nothing indicates to me that they are)
Should I expect another SJP for the remaining three tickets? (or remain one , if we consider the refunded tickets?!)
What could I expect from the exiting remaining Court Case (third of three) ? - given that the second was 'proposed driving disqualification'
Should I go ahead and pay the fine, or should I wait to understand all the tickets?
What is up with that "failed to satisfy the requirements" thing? (its just flat-out wrong)
What is difference between 'Penalty point expiry' and 'Endorsement removal'?
Can there be more fines(!) resulting from this process?!?!
How long might I be banned for?

So, if you are still reading... Thanks! Sorry it's such a long and detailed post!!
I'm really so grateful for any and all advice and experience that might relate to this

I do feel I'm being kind hammered despite being compliant and honest - but to be fair, I did rack up the points.. It's just the ongoing uncertainty here that is causing me concern overall (not to mention the cost!)

(edited to fix formatting)

andy_foster · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2025, 07:40:34 pm »

You've managed to use a lot of words and, even more white space, to tell us very little of any relevance, and an amount of utter horse sh1t.

There are 2 valid reasons for a paid COFP to be refunded/rejected - the most common is the failure to provide identification details (generally referred to as licence details on the COFP) to the Fixed Penalty Clerk when accepting the COFP (as opposed to as part of the s. 172 requirement to name the driver). The other is being liable to tot up.

Everyone who has a COFP refunded/rejected for the first reason tells us that they provided their details (in response to the s. 172 requirement) - unless they did a bit of reading (other threads in this forum, or the elusive fabled "READ THIS FIRST" post) before posting. You simply telling us that you provided your details only tells us that you didn't read the "READ THIS FIRST" post.

You mention paying the fixed penalties in response to the NIPs. Presumably the NIP/s.172s included COFPs?

For the benefit of anyone else in a similar situation who has not already potentially painted themselves into a corner before seeking advice, if totting up is unavoidable due to many, many, "tickets" it is generally advantageous to have them all heard together so that regardless of how many points you tot up to, you only face a single ban, or if you have a viable Exceptional Hardship argument, you only need to argue EH once (you cannot use the same EH grounds again for 3 years). If you view the eligibility for an SAC to be a useful "lifeline" to avoid points/totting, there is little point in taking an SAC if you are bound to tot up anyway (you cannot take the same course again for 3 years).

The SJ will generally not ban you as you have to be given an opportunity to present any arguments as to why you should not be banned, and a ban had immediate effect and it is very important that you know when you are banned - so if a ban is being considered, either outright for a single offence, or for totting, the SJ will transfer the process to the Mags' court for sentencing.

A totting up ban wipes the points up to that point for the purposes of totting up - which is why it is important to have all the outstanding cases sentenced together. If you are sentenced after receiving a totting ban, you get to keep the new points.

A totting up ban is a minimum of 6 months, unless the court find that such a ban would cause exceptional hardship (beyond that which everyone else would expect to suffer), in which case they can reduce the length, or not ban you at all (in which case you would still have a third world debt's worth of points on your licence and any subsequent points in the next 3 years would see you totting up again. It is rare for totting up bans to be longer than 6 months, unless you have been banned in the previous 3 years in which case the minimum is 12 months.

Doris Stokes sadly passed away some time ago.

cybotic · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2025, 10:57:59 pm »

Hello - I'm grateful for your response - it does indeed answer some of my questions- thanks.

Sorry for the whitespace.. My post took hours to write, and I previewed it repeatedly - FWIW The preview did not contain this resulting whitespace (ill attempt to edit now to improve it)

Honestly , I came here seeking support and guidance - and your opener of ".... tell us very little of any relevance, and an amount of utter horse sh1t." is insulting. I had read the "READ THIS FIRST" post - I didn't understand a great deal of it - I don't feel you needed to club me over the head with that either.

To the best of my knowledge I've posted every detail I could (yeah, lots of words.. I did apologise for the length upfront) and believed I was being as thorough as possible.

Quote

Presumably the NIP/s.172s included COFPs?

NIP : the thing they sent me first
s172: the part where the driver must be named
included COFPs : Yes. And your presumption is correct: I opted to accept for all.

andy_foster · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2025, 11:33:03 pm »

If you feel insulted by an observation that you posted horsesh*t, perhaps you might like to consider not posting horsesh*t.

Your subject heading for this thread includes the headline "24 points". Assuming that that is intended to refer to the total that you can be expected to tot up to, perhaps you would like to elucidate on how you arrived at that figure. N.B., by convention, any number without a stated base is deemed to be base 10.

You have 10 points already -
3 from prior to your recent run of bad luck,
3 in October from "the car", whatever that is supposed to mean - which may or may not be related to the fixed penalty for an offence the following month,
and 4 from one of your rejected COFPs.

That leaves 6 offences/COFPs from August potentially outstanding
Except that you somehow completed an SAC for the first offence that you paid the fixed penalty for. This is somewhat unconventional, but more a gaping hole in the narrative than necessarily horsesh*t. So there are potentially 5 outstanding.

On what basis are you predicting 14 points from the 5 outstanding offences?

If we can't take the information you give us at face value, you know, like on account of it being horsesh*t, there seems little point in trying to offer advice based on the information you give us.

cybotic · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2025, 12:21:19 am »

Quote

Assuming that that is intended to refer to the total that you can be expected to tot up to, perhaps you would like to elucidate on how you arrived at that figure

Assumption correct! this 'ballpark figure' was arrived at based on:
3 points - my previous existing from years back
7 new tickets (sorry, they'll always be tickets to me) at 3 points each.

It was simply an attempt to illustrate what I perceive as the magnitude of my situation, rather than a resolute summation of the literal points tally. (That was provided later in the handy table!)

Quote

You have 10 points already -
3 from prior to your recent run of bad luck,
3 in October from "the car", whatever that is supposed to mean - which may or may not be related to the fixed penalty for an offence the following month,
and 4 from one of your rejected COFPs.

correct! this is what my handy table attempted to elucidate.

In my oh-so-amusingly entitled paragraph "But wait... There's more!" - I had highlighted the additional "Car" offence.

I should point out that everything else here relates, in fact, to my motorbike, and having just re-read my original post I realise that I did not mention that at all - anywhere. I can see how this missing fact does take the reference to 'the car' into the realms of mysticism (or indeed hosesh1t)

However, armed with the knowledge that this is all with respect to my motorbike - I'm sure you will be among the first to agree that everything now makes perfect sense!

I do not have (and never have had) any real idea what actual points I can expect to 'end up with' from this saga.

Quote

That leaves 6 offences/COFPs from August potentially outstanding
Except that you somehow completed an SAC for the first offence that you paid the fixed penalty for. This is somewhat unconventional, but more a gaping hole in the narrative than necessarily horsesh*t. So there are potentially 5 outstanding.

I've attached an image of the spreadsheet I've been working from. Not sure if it helps or hinders. [ Guests cannot view attachments ]
7 offences on the bike - one completed SAC (no payment) 6 outstanding
1 offence in the car - paid & completed with 3 points

One other thing - I've seen in other posts on this site that "... police have six months from the offence date to bring proceedings".

It is now more than six months since the date of all my outstanding offences. WOuld the above statement apply to my three remaining offences (I've accepted a COFP for each) for which I have not yet received an SJP ?

(edited to fix £$^*@ing formatting!)

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

andy_foster · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2025, 12:28:00 am »

Depends on whether the police have already instigated proceedings.

ManxTom · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2025, 02:45:40 pm »

Quote from: cybotic on January 26, 2025, 06:18:05 pm

... "Failed to satisfy the requirements"?
One thing i noticed on all of the three SJPs ... it states the following:
Quote
"The driver/rider failed to satisfy the requirements of the Fixed Penalty, the Fixed Penalty was paid, but they failed to provide their license details for electronic endorsement and a refund was requested"
"The driver/rider did not satisfy the requirements of the Fixed Penalty offer within the specified timeframe. As a result the offer of a Fixed Penalty has been withdrawn"
Both of these statements are incorrect. In all cases I did provide my licence details, and in all cases I did so within the required timeframe.
In fact , the SJPs come with a copy of the form originally submitted form - which clearly shows I have provided my licence details.
Is something messed up here, by either me or them?...

What caused two of the original £100 payments to be refunded? Why no correspondence?
What is up with that "failed to satisfy the requirements" thing? (its just flat-out wrong)

When you attempted to pay the Fixed Penalties did you read properly the conditions attached to them?

One of them will be that you are required to provide your driving licence details - again. Did you do so?

The fact that you will have already provided your DL details when identifying yourself as the driver in response to the s172 request is irrelevant. You need to supply your DL details again when accepting the fixed penalty, otherwise it will be rejected and refunded to you because you haven't complied with the terms of the offer.

cybotic · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2025, 08:44:41 pm »

Quote

When you attempted to pay the Fixed Penalties did you read properly the conditions attached to them?

One of them will be that you are required to provide your driving licence details - again. Did you do so?

The fact that you will have already provided your DL details when identifying yourself as the driver in response to the s172 request is irrelevant. You need to supply your DL details again when accepting the fixed penalty, otherwise it will be rejected and refunded to you because you haven't complied with the terms of the offer

So the first things I sent were the NIPs, right? this is essential to post - ie no online option? I sent all of those at once - registered post.
From that point on, I've done everything online.

Then, paying the fixed penalties (this is the COFP, right?) I completed all seven the same way (at least as far as I know)
Did I read them properly - yes.
Did I miss something on two of them? possibly, but unlikely as I had to do seven. No way of telling now.

SO this might really be a case of "you didn’t fill in a form right, so we're going to shaft you even more"? Charming! as if seven offences wasn't enough.

I'm really regretting doing the online submissions for the COFP and for the SJPs, as I've no record to refer back to .

666 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2025, 06:45:42 am »

Quote from: cybotic on January 27, 2025, 08:44:41 pm

Quote
When you attempted to pay the Fixed Penalties did you read properly the conditions attached to them?

One of them will be that you are required to provide your driving licence details - again. Did you do so?

The fact that you will have already provided your DL details when identifying yourself as the driver in response to the s172 request is irrelevant. You need to supply your DL details again when accepting the fixed penalty, otherwise it will be rejected and refunded to you because you haven't complied with the terms of the offer

So the first things I sent were the NIPs, right? this is essential to post - ie no online option? I sent all of those at once - registered post.
From that point on, I've done everything online.

Registered post hasn't existed for years. What service did you really use?

BertB · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2025, 11:05:54 am »

COFPs. You make payment online and then send back the completed form including your D/L details on it.

You say after the NIPs you did everything online? I don't know if it has changed, but does what you completed online allow provision to provide your D/L details? it never used to.

From your summary of points so far, it doesn't look like any of the 'bike' COFPs have been processed, other than the two rejected and the one that went to court. However this must be from a different timeline? You may get more rejected and refunded if you used the same method and response on all. It does not stand to reason at the moment if everything was done identical, two would be different.

I know this information is probably in the thread, buried in amongst the 10,000 word essays, however I'm confused about:

1 x existing 3 points
1 x Car COFP 3 points. This must be from an earlier timeline.
1 x Mag court sentence 4 points. The timeframes also dictate this must be from an earlier offence.

Then we have 5(?) COFPs for the Bike, of which two have been refunded and three not know at this stage?

cybotic · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2025, 09:53:48 pm »

Quote from: 666 on January 28, 2025, 06:45:42 am

Registered post hasn't existed for years. What service did you really use?
[/quote]
Apparently it's called 'signed for' these days. I really used that.

cybotic · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2025, 03:21:32 pm »

A quick recap and update, followed by a new question...
I've spoken to the police and to the courts (both were really helpful)

I had received 7 NIPS .It turns out I had indeed totally messed up the submission of all seven (not provided lic details)

SAC
SJP - court £1212 & 4 points
SJP - NoPDD (awaiting hearing)
SJP - NoPDD (awaiting hearing)
not prosecuted
not prosecuted
not prosecuted

The first NIP was resolved by attending a Speed Awareness course.

From the 6 remaining NIPS I got three Single Justice Procedures (all in different London courts)
I'd pleaded guilty online to all three.

One of the SJP's has been heard - for which I got a £1212 fine and 4 points (bringing my total to 10pts)
For the two other SJPs I have received separate 'Notice of proposed driving disqualification'. one for each

The other three NIPs are not being prosecuted as six months had passed since the offence. (This is what the police told me).
This is the situation to date.

I am asking the courts to hear the two cases together (courts suggested this, and told me how to go about it)
I also intend to ask the court to take into account or review the SJP that has already been heard. (ie to linkup all three SJPs)

I intend to go to court to plead my case. I don't intend to pay for a Solicitor.

I would like to ask advice for this please:
Should I mention the fact that I had 7 NIPS to the court? I'm not being charged for the three NIPS that the police failed to prosecute, so should I not mention them? or must I?
I'm inclined to be honest, but I don't want to incriminate myself further.

Note: When I originally returned the 7 NIPS (all together in one envelope) I enclosed a cover letter in which I mentioned the fact I was returning 'all seven NIPS'. Each SJP contained a copy of this letter, so the court knows this fact.

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Author Topic: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting .... (Read 1351 times)

cybotic

x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

andy_foster

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

cybotic

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

andy_foster

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

cybotic

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

andy_foster

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

ManxTom

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

cybotic

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

666

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

BertB

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

cybotic

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....

cybotic

Re: x7 Fixed Penalties in 3 days. x3 SJPs , 24 points, £1700 and counting ....