Author Topic: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)  (Read 1461 times)

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C_H_R_I_S

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Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« on: August 08, 2024, 12:27:20 pm »
I literally looked at my phone while on a red light and a cyclist got up to my car and started telling me he could report me for that..

1 week later I get a letter from the police:

Use a handheld phone / device while driving motor vehicle on the road.

What can I do to get out of this?

A fine or points could cost me big long term with insurance companies.

is there anything I can do to lessen this burden?
Photo attached



EDIT : Car engine was also off due to stop start technology.
EDIT 2: https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/19-07-31-DPP-v-Barreto-Ref.-CO2702019-Judgment.pdf
This is a case where they let the driver off while FILMING! because it wasnt a communication use of the phone.

In my case I looked at a text message but did not respond to it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 01:17:45 pm by C_H_R_I_S »

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The Rookie

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2024, 12:35:21 pm »
Not much, it seems, you admit using a hand held phone.  The last element is 'while driving' and courts are currently convicting those sat at lights/in traffic on the basis that that is while driving the car (it not being while parked).  People have tried a defence of 'not driving' in the magistrates court and failed, so far no-one has taken a case high enough to set case law either way.

Government advice (NOT LAW) is that stopped at a light is driving in fact it's the first point!

Probably the only lessening of the burden is to accept any out of court offer, going to court will cost you more, but it will still be 6 points and increased premiums.  Hopefully you passed your first test more than 2 years ago.

https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones-when-driving-the-law
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

slapdash

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2024, 12:52:06 pm »
What exactly did you do with the phone and where was it whilst you did this.

NewJudge

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2024, 02:23:51 pm »
EDIT 2: https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/19-07-31-DPP-v-Barreto-Ref.-CO2702019-Judgment.pdf
This is a case where they let the driver off while FILMING! because it wasnt a communication use of the phone.

Just to clarify, the case of Ramsey Barreto led to a change in the law.

Mr Barreto was caught using his mobile phone whilst driving. He was filming he scene of an accident as he drove past. At his trial in the Magistrates' Court he claimed that he had passed the phone to his son who carried out the filming. The court disbelieved him and he was convicted and then appealed to the Crown Court on the same basis.

At his appeal that court also disbelieved that his son had been using the phone. But Mr Barreto's lawyer drew to the attention of the court a recent decision of the Crown Court on an appeal against conviction for a similar offence. In that case the motorist, while driving, had been using his mobile phone to listen to music which was stored in the phone. He demonstrated how he changed the music tracks on his phone which he held in his hand, using his thumb. The issue was whether that conduct constituted using a mobile phone. The court ruled that it did not because it did not involve any external communication. The Crown Court sitting in Mr Barreto's appeal adopted the same reasoning in his case and concluded that using a mobile phone to take a photograph or film did not amount to “using” a hand-held mobile. Accordingly his conviction was quashed. This was entirely due to the wording of the law which said tha for the offence o be made out, the phone must be used "..“making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function.”. Filming using the phone did no match that requirement.

The DPP appealed to the High Court by way of a "case stated" claiming that the regulation prohibited all use of a hand-held mobile phone while driving. Mr Barreto claimed that it only prohibited activities which involved "interactive communication".

The High Court found in favour of Mr Barreto and his appeal was upheld.

That decision was handed down in July 2019 and in March 2022 the law was amended. It now prevents "using" a mobile phone for any purpose. The legislation provides a non-exhaustive list of activities considered o be "using" a phone and if there is any dispute on that question it would be for a court to decide whether the phone was being used or not.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 07:13:02 pm by NewJudge »

The Rookie

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2024, 03:40:48 pm »
The legislation provides a non-exhaustive list of activities considered o be "using" a phone
That list, looking at a text message is certainly 'use' for the purposes here.
Quote
(c)in paragraphs (1) to (3) the word “using” includes the following—
(i)illuminating the screen;
(ii)checking the time;
(iii)checking notifications;
(iv)unlocking the device;
(v)making, receiving, or rejecting a telephone or internet based call;
(vi)sending, receiving or uploading oral or written content;
(vii)sending, receiving or uploading a photo or video;
(viii)utilising camera, video, or sound recording functionality;
(ix)drafting any text;
(x)accessing any stored data such as documents, books, audio files, photos, videos, films, playlists, notes or messages;
(xi)accessing an application;
(xii)accessing the internet.”.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

The Slithy Tove

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2024, 09:54:23 pm »
EDIT : Car engine was also off due to stop start technology.
Not relevant in any way, as the legislation talks about "driving", and not whether the engine is running or not. It also talks about "using" the phone...
In my case I looked at a text message but did not respond to it.
... which that most certainly is.

C_H_R_I_S

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2024, 10:32:04 pm »
SO The police responded but I would say with clerical errors given it doesnt really mention my offence and instead talks about seemingly unrelated information>

Is there anything I can do against this??

RESPONSE FROM POLICE:


CONDITIONAL OFFER OF FIXED PENALTY
We have evidence that you were the driver of the motor vehicle XXXXXXXX at the time of the alleged offence London on 30/07/2024 at 08:40 hours Contrary to regulation 110(1) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, section 41D of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
Speed / Endorsable offences carry a maximum penalty of £1000 and 6 penalty points or £2500 and 6 penalty points (motorway offences). Traffic signal offences carry a maximum penalty of £1000 and 3 penalty points.

If it is your wish to contest this matter in court you may do so. If you do not wish to contest the matter then it may be possible to deal with it by a fixed penalty of £200.00 and the endorsement of 6 penalty points on your licence, by post without the need for court proceedings.

If you wish to be considered for a fixed penalty please read the instructions in Step 1 and Step 2 overleaf and follow them carefully. YOU HAVE 28 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THIS NOTICE TO COMPLY WITH THIS CONDITIONAL OFFER. No proceedings will be instituted against you during that period, but failure to respond to this notice within that period will lead to proceedings. In those circumstances you will have an opportunity to have a court hearing of this case.
J Snell

On behalf of the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolitan Police
Important Notes
PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS CONDITIONAL OFFER IS ONLY VALID FOR 28 DAYS FROM THE DATE ON THIS LETTER.
** YOU MUST ONLY USE THE OFFICIAL PAYMENT METHODS AS STATED OVERLEAF **
TO ACCEPT THIS CONDITIONAL OFFER
If you wish to accept this conditional offer of fixed penalty, you can discharge liability to conviction by payment and providing your driving licence details. If you do not fulfil the requirements in Part 1 and Part 2 on Pages 3 and 4 within 2 days of the date of this notice, any payment made may be refunded or returned to you and you will then be prosecuted If your driving licence has eight or less penalty points endorsed in the last 3 years you can accept this offer.
The address details are provided in Part 2 on Page 4. DO NOT SEND ANY MONEY OR LICENCE TO POLICE
TO DECLINE THIS CONDITIONAL OFFER OR CONTEST THE MATTER
If you wish to decline or are unable to accept this offer, you can either write to us notifying us of your intention or alterna do nothing. Arrangements will then be made to the matter to proceed to court.
This notice is issued under sec. 34 Road Traffic Act 1991 and sec. 75 and 77 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988



This is all because a crazy cyclist saw me look at my phone at a red light! Unbelievable
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The Rookie

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2024, 10:37:15 pm »
Nothing has changed in the situation.

Even if the offer was wholly wrong it doesn’t provide a defence to the charge.

A bit unfair calling someone crazy for reporting a crime, it happens all the time.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!
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NewJudge

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2024, 10:52:52 pm »
Quote
SO The police responded but I would say with clerical errors given it doesnt really mention my offence...
I think it does:

"We have evidence that you were the driver of the motor vehicle XXXXXXXX at the time of the alleged offence London on 30/07/2024 at 08:40 hours Contrary to regulation 110(1) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, section 41D of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988."

It then goes on to give you details of their offer of a fixed penalty.


Ziggyplayedguitar2

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2024, 11:51:30 am »
Looking at the List that The Rookie supplied....


Using Waze or Google Maps could lead to a conviction.Where do we stand on Navigation with Mobile Phones ......Millions of us do it everyday??
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Southpaw82

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2024, 12:21:40 pm »
Looking at the List that The Rookie supplied....


Using Waze or Google Maps could lead to a conviction.Where do we stand on Navigation with Mobile Phones ......Millions of us do it everyday??

While holding the phone?

d612

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2024, 12:42:17 pm »
Its perfectly legal to use the phone provided it is in a fixed cradle. It's the "hand held/phone in your hand" bit while driving that creates the offence.

That said, I'm sure there are some other catch-all legislation somewhere that would cover an offence if you were excessively interacting with the phone while it WAS in a cradle such to be driving without due care and attention to the road. The cradle must also not obscure your view of the road.

There are also exclusions for hand held use covering making emergency calls and for paying for something via the phone's NFC facility in a "drive through" type retail outlet.


slapdash

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2024, 08:11:50 pm »
Is there anything I can do against this??

If you believe you haven't committed an offence go to court and plead not guilty.

As far as I could tell you said "looked at my phone". You haven't indicated how you did that. Though if you picked it up you don't seem to have a defence.
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The Rookie

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2024, 08:44:49 pm »
Looking at the List that The Rookie supplied....


Using Waze or Google Maps could lead to a conviction.Where do we stand on Navigation with Mobile Phones ......Millions of us do it everyday??

While holding the phone?
To expand on what SP said, the mobile offence requires 3 elements, all of which have to be in place for the offence to be committed. The accused would have to be USING a HAND HELD phone while DRIVING. Put it on a mount, no offence.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

stamfordman

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Re: Used phone at red light ( cyclist footage)
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2024, 01:43:08 pm »
Could have been Cycling Mikey who got you as West London is his territory. You can see a lot of cases he's referred to the police for phone driving here:

https://www.youtube.com/@CyclingMikey
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