Author Topic: UK Red Light Camera – crossed stop line from right-turn lane to go straight (straight lane green). Any chance to dispute  (Read 956 times)

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Hope this is the right place. I’m in England (UK).

I received a Notice of Intended Prosecution for allegedly failing to comply with a red light.

What happened:
   •   I was stopped at a junction in the right-turn lane, where the right-turn arrow was red.
   •   The lane for going straight had a green light.
   •   The lane markings between the lanes were broken (dashed), not solid.
   •   I indicated left, waited until it was safe, and moved left to go straight.
   •   As I crossed the stop line, the camera flashed.

The photos show:
   1.   My car stopped at the line in the right lane indicating left.
   2.   The next photo shows my car crossing the line angled left, going straight.

I did not turn right and the direction I went (straight) had a green light.

The notice says the recorded time into red was 91 seconds.

The alleged offence wording is “Fail to comply with red / green arrow / lane closure light signals – automatic equipment.”

Do I have any realistic chance of disputing this, or will it still count as running the red because I crossed the line from the right-turn lane?

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Can you send a location with google street view otherwise we're working in the dark.
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.


Was the straight ahead signal still green when you crossed?

Yes that was green can see in the pictures as well

Then in my view, the red light for the right turn means you must not cross the line to turn right - and you didn't.

Hopefully others will be along with their opinions.

Yes, that's my view too, hence the request to the OP to get a google street view.
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.

I'd suspect that the OP did cross the stop line of the "turn right" lane albeit it at an angle while moving left into the straight ahead lane, thereby triggering the camera from the sensor pads in the road.
The offence as I understand it is of crossing the line when the lights for that lane are red regardless of where the driver wanted to go.  Even if you cross the line for emergency services (and you should not) you are guitly of crossing the line 
If they were hard up against the stop line in the right hand lane it would be almost impossible (without reversing!) to get into the LH lane without crossing the stop line in front of them.  If they were a bit further back of course then they could do it.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:30:50 pm by d612 »

I'd suspect that the OP did cross the stop line of the "turn right" lane albeit it at an angle while moving left into the straight ahead lane.
If they were hard up against the stop line in the right hand lane it would be almost impossible (without reversing!) to get into the LH lane without crossing the stop line in front of them.  If they were a bit further back of course then they could do it.


Yes this is right I was at the stop line crossed it to get completly into the left and then went straight

Well my viewpoint is that sadly you have no escape on this one: others may differ in their comments.

Red light offences are 'absolute' I think it's called such that there is no excuse permitted.
If say you had moved forward at an angle into the LH lane with no intention to turn right but did so to let an ambulance/fire engine etc through on red for them to turn right then again sadly you would be "done" for crossing the stop line.

This is why on my local dual carriageway we regularly get police and ambulances stuck behind the two lanes of traffic waiting at traffic lights on red and not one single person is going to move. Only if personally directed in person by a police officer in uniform are you allowed to cross the line at a red indicating traffic light. Them blaring their horn behind you to move does not count!

Them blaring their horn behind you to move does not count!

Says who?

A good starting point, as far as the OP’s incident is concerned, would be to look at what the law says.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

Well my viewpoint is that sadly you have no escape on this one: others may differ in their comments.

Red light offences are 'absolute' I think it's called such that there is no excuse permitted.
If say you had moved forward at an angle into the LH lane with no intention to turn right but did so to let an ambulance/fire engine etc through on red for them to turn right then again sadly you would be "done" for crossing the stop line.

This is why on my local dual carriageway we regularly get police and ambulances stuck behind the two lanes of traffic waiting at traffic lights on red and not one single person is going to move. Only if personally directed in person by a police officer in uniform are you allowed to cross the line at a red indicating traffic light. Them blaring their horn behind you to move does not count!
The regulations permit a driver to proceed in the direction indicated by the green arrow. There are - so far as I can see - no references to or caveats or exceptions regarding "lanes", and so the OP does not appear to have committed any offence.

I fail to see what relevance emergency vehicles have to the OP's case.

So were you in lane 3 but indicating left to move into lane 2 to continue straight?

If so it may be that if lane 3 was red to turn right but lanes 1 & 2 were green for straight on that you have triggered the lane 3 camera. Does that make sense?

Quote
If so, it may be that if lane 3 was red to turn right but lanes 1 & 2 were green for straight on that you have triggered the lane 3 camera. Does that make sense?

That’s undoubtedly what happened. But the question is whether or not an offence has been committed.

The passage I found last night comes from The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, Schedule 14, Part 1, Paragraph 5.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents

It specifically refers to “filter lane” type signals. It clearly states that a driver may proceed beyond the stop line in the direction indicted by the arrow. This is what the OP did and I believe no offence has been committed.

It’s convenient for the police to detect errant drivers by monitoring the right-turn lane. But it means they may also detect some drivers who do not turn right.

Red light offences are 'absolute' I think it's called such that there is no excuse permitted.

Where "senior" members of the site understand that the legal position is X, but are not absolutely certain, it can be helpful to consider alternative opinions, and the reasoning behind them. It can also be helpful to consider how much credence to give to such opinions. Is it a genuinely arguable legal point, well thought through, and supported by some kind of authority, or is it merely a vox pop from someone whose purpose in life is to demonstrate that the internet's democratisation of dissemination of information has a downside? To that extent, your post is very helpful.

An absolute offence is one to which there is no defence, that is to say that once the elements of the offence have been proven, that is the end of the matter. There are very few absolute offences, because absolute offences preclude the otherwise overarching defences of duress and duress of circumstances. I'm pretty certain that strict liability offences cannot be absolute offences, but that's getting even further off topic.

This is very different to the far more common strict liability offences, where liability is not absolute, merely strict - that is to say that the commission of the offence solely requires the actus reus (the guilty action) and not the mens rea (guilty intent). For 'proper' crimes, there needs to be an intent, whether that is specific, or even just recklessness, depending on the offence in question. Almost all motoring offences are strict liability.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:33:58 pm by andy_foster »
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