3. Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
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Milky Way1

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Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« on: October 22, 2024, 10:24:19 pm »
Dear Forum,

I would appreciate your advice regarding my husband's SJP (received 15/10/24 for driving 46 mph in a 40 mph zone on the A20 Sidcup Bypass, where a temporary 40 mph limit was introduced in early 2024. There was a lot of controversy around fines on this road earlier in the year. This offence relates to 22/4/24. Despite responding to the NIP twice (dated 09/07/24 and 20/08/24) and accepting responsibility as the driver, he has now received an SJP. He holds a German driving licence, which he has not changed in 30 years and has no prior endorsements.

My questions are:

 - Is 46 mph within the allowable threshold, given the 10% + 2 mph tolerance rule?
 - Should we request the calibration certificate to confirm the speed reading's accuracy and consider contesting it?
 - Could the decision to issue an SJP instead of a fixed penalty offer be influenced by his German driving licence, and what
  would be the best way to proceed in this case?

Many thanks for your help and insights.
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andy_foster

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2024, 10:48:34 pm »
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance!

How/why did your husband respond to the NIP twice?

There is no 10% +2mph "tolerance". The guidelines, which are only guidelines (but are followed quite strictly) are that enforcement starts at 10% +2mph.

Since Brexit, EU licence holders can drive in the UK until they are 70 or 3 years from when they became resident, whichever is sooner. Not entirely sure when this started (Brexit seems to have been somewhat of a moveable feast) or what the transitional arrangements were (e.g. whether on day 1 all EU licence holders who had been resident for more than 3 years were no longer licensed, or what)
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Milky Way1

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2024, 11:53:24 pm »
Thank you.
He replied to NIP twice because it was received twice. It wasn't apparent to us that he sent it off twice, until they sent copies alongside SJP.

So really he is right on the threshold @46mph. I am still not sure why they decided to go to the Court and not offer a fixed penalty, unless they are up for a trick.

Do you have any advice for us? Would the calibration certificate be useful?

Thank you in advance.



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itsnotmwyouno

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2024, 12:35:48 am »
He is over the threshold for enforcement since it starts at 46.  It would be counted as 46 even if 46.99 mph as figures are always rounded down, not to the nearest number.  How long was it following the offence was the NIP sent?

He may well be able to ask for the sentencing to be in line with the fixed penalty level.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 12:37:22 am by itsnotmwyouno »
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andy_foster

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2024, 12:36:03 am »
Quote from: Milky Way1 on October 22, 2024, 11:53:24 pm
Do you have any advice for us?

Based on what?
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The Slithy Tove

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2024, 08:49:21 am »
Quote from: Milky Way1 on October 22, 2024, 11:53:24 pm
I am still not sure why they decided to go to the Court and not offer a fixed penalty, unless they are up for a trick.
Nothing of the sort. We don't know the reason for the tardiness of the S.172 forms or why it was sent twice. But that tardiness meant it was far too late for a course, and even the offer of a fixed penalty ran the risk of timing out. So they went straight for the SJP.
Quote from: Milky Way1 on October 22, 2024, 11:53:24 pm
Do you have any advice for us? Would the calibration certificate be useful?
As advised, ask to be sentenced at the fixed penalty rate, giving reasons. Forget calibration certificates. Are you suggesting the speed was less than 40?
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NewJudge

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2024, 08:58:13 am »
Does the SJPN list just speeding?

As far as your questions go:

Quote
- Is 46 mph within the allowable threshold, given the 10% + 2 mph tolerance rule?

Dealt with above.

Quote
- Should we request the calibration certificate to confirm the speed reading's accuracy and consider contesting it?

Does he believe it is inaccurate? Or is he just  considering "fishing"? In any case he hasn't got much time to consider it as the SJPN must be responded to in 21 days.

That stretch is covered by an average speed system. There is no speed measurement as such. A camera takes a photo at the beginning and end. The elapsed time between the two is used, together with the known distance to calculate the average speed. There is little to go wrong.

Quote
- Could the decision to issue an SJP instead of a fixed penalty offer be influenced by his German driving licence, and what
  would be the best way to proceed in this case?

It could be influenced by the fact that they may not have received his initial response (hence my first question). Why did he respond twice? But other than that who knows? He could try ringing the ticket office to find out why he was not offered either a course or FP (that would also answer my first question).

He may be pleased to learn that the stretch is reverting to National Speed Limit (70mph) at the end of this month.
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NewJudge

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2024, 09:03:31 am »
Quote from: NewJudge on October 23, 2024, 08:58:13 am
Does the SJPN list just speeding?

As far as your questions go:

Quote
- Is 46 mph within the allowable threshold, given the 10% + 2 mph tolerance rule?

Dealt with above.

Quote
- Should we request the calibration certificate to confirm the speed reading's accuracy and consider contesting it?

Does he believe it is inaccurate? Or is he just  considering "fishing"? In any case he hasn't got much time to consider it as the SJPN must be responded to in 21 days.

That stretch is covered by an average speed system. There is no speed measurement as such. A camera takes a photo at the beginning and end. The elapsed time between the two is used, together with the known distance to calculate the average speed. There is little to go wrong.

Quote
- Could the decision to issue an SJP instead of a fixed penalty offer be influenced by his German driving licence, and what
  would be the best way to proceed in this case?

It could be influenced by the fact that they may not have received his initial response (hence my first question). Why did he respond twice? But other than that who knows? He could try ringing the ticket office to find out why he was not offered either a course or FP (that would also answer my first question). If he finds out he could then explain that to the court if he decides to ask to be sentenced at the FP equivalent.

He may be pleased to learn that the stretch is reverting to National Speed Limit (70mph) at the end of this month.

EDIT: I've just noticed the dates thanks to the above answer. That would certainly have an influence over how the offence would be dealt with, especially if no satisfactory response was received until late August.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 09:07:07 am by NewJudge »
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Milky Way1

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2024, 09:17:30 am »
The offence was 22/4/24 so around 3 months after the 1st NIP received.

1st NIP 09/07 = replied 18/07 -  they sent the copy in the documents. We keep the copy too.
2nd NIP (final reminder) 16/08 = replied 26/08, stamped as received by the met 10/09/24

Charged 14/10/2024

In the witness statement of the Camera Processing Caseworker says: 'I am unable to provide any technical evidence concerning the original offence. In the event you wish to challenge you should request the attendance of a police officer.'

They included a couple of photographs from Safe Zone Siemens citing relevant info, speed, distance etc. Hence I thought of calibration, but I think you very kindly answered it.

I'm unsure of the best approach here.

Thank you
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Milky Way1

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2024, 09:28:09 am »
Quote from: NewJudge on October 23, 2024, 09:03:31 am
Quote from: NewJudge on October 23, 2024, 08:58:13 am
Does the SJPN list just speeding?

Yes, just 1 offence ' speed exceeding 40mphr'.

Where I find the ticket office number?

PS> I tried to attach the file but sayss the folder is full
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Southpaw82

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2024, 09:39:16 am »
Quote from: Milky Way1 on October 23, 2024, 09:28:09 am
PS> I tried to attach the file but sayss the folder is full

Presumably you’ve not read this.
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Milky Way1

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2024, 12:33:10 pm »
Dear all, thank you for all your invaluable advice and help:-) I am truly grateful.

I never knew about this gold mine of citizen solidarity and brain power. I might become a frequent question contributor:-), or volunteer for such a role.

We called the called police - the sjp is because all was received late, they said just reply and seek foxed penalty consideration, and any other mitigating circumstances.

Thank you again!
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Milky Way1

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2024, 12:38:12 pm »
Quote from: NewJudge on October 23, 2024, 08:58:13 am


He may be pleased to learn that the stretch is reverting to National Speed Limit (70mph) at the end of this month.

Pleased (VERY) but also shocking u-turn after all the grief caused to many people, safety, flooding, FoIs, risk assessment, publicity, whatnot...just revert to the original limit?! Cynical at best, in my view.
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NewJudge

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2024, 02:04:52 pm »
Quote
Pleased (VERY) but also shocking u-turn after all the grief caused to many people, safety, flooding, FoIs, risk assessment, publicity, whatnot...just revert to the original limit?! Cynical at best, in my view.
You missed out a couple of bits:

- There had been a number of serious accidents on the eastbound carriageway (one involving a fatality) which were almost certainly caused by vehicles aquaplaning on standing water that had accumulated due to serious drainage defects.

- The road has experienced two complete weekend closures (the latest being August Bank Holiday) and two or three overnight closures to effect the modifications that were necessary to cure the flooding problem.

But back to your husband's problem. He should respond to the SJPN by pleading guilty. In the "mitigating circumstances" section he should respectfully ask the court to consider sentencing him at the fixed penalty level. He might want to mention why he responded so late to the NIP - or he might not. If he is not the Registered Keeper and his NIP arrived after a delay it would be certainly worth mentioning. If his response was late simply because of his own negligence it might not (though in that case the court would be less likely to accede to his request).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2024, 02:08:14 pm by NewJudge »
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RichardW

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Re: Seeking Advice on SJP for Speeding 46miles on 40 mile A20 Sidcup Bypass
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2024, 02:28:19 pm »
If husband is the reg keeper then he has a defence as 1st NIP apparently not served within 14 days.
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