Author Topic: Please help with unfair speeding ticket  (Read 1370 times)

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Freecall

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2025, 08:32:38 am »
We are both professionals......

That should give your advocate something to work with in court.
 ???

ukdriver1981

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2025, 05:23:54 pm »
So what are you actually telling all three of us - that we made it up? 

Your observation skills are quite poor it seems because I never said that. It appears that the 40 mph limit had been in place for about an hour before you activated the camera.

The real point you ought to think of is what can be proven in court.

You said our 'collective' observation skills are poor.

I appreciate what you are saying about speed limit duration not changing.  I have been aware of this from the off.  It is not correct.  I would not write to the Highways Agency, the Ticketing Office and on forums if I had any doubt whatsoever that we even might have been slightly wrong about what we saw.  We discussed it immediately and kept discussing it.  I predicted that something had gone wrong with the roundel/gantry and we would get an invalid NIP.  When we got it there was no shock, no oooh what the hell is this? or surprise - I just knew it was coming and it would be wrong.  That is why I am here.

ukdriver1981

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2025, 05:27:27 pm »
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No the only thing that is bull about this entire thing is that their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long after we passed them - not before, or just as we went under.

Except that all all the photos you have posted here - those of your car and of the gantry - were taken at the same site within a second of each other. That is the evidence the police will use to convict your partner.

By all means persuade your partner to plead Not Guilty. You can both give your evidence that you saw the gantry sign displaying "50". The court will have to decide whether to accept your testimony (your recollections of the event) or that of the police (consisting of timed photographs). If convicted your partner is unlikely to see any change from £1,000.

The photographic evidence does not showing us prior to or passing under the gantry.  That evidence they have in their possesion - it is a full defence to this.

DWMB2

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2025, 05:34:56 pm »
You said our 'collective' observation skills are poor.
He originally suggested that a plausible explanation was that your observation skills may have been poor. That's not the same as saying your observation skills are or were poor (although on this occasion it does seem that what you saw is not the same as what Southpaw actually wrote...).

What happened, what plausible explanations there may be, and what can be proven in court may all be different things. As has already been suggested, the most important one is the latter.

ukdriver1981

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2025, 05:52:21 pm »
their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long after we passed them - not before, or just as we went under.  Why not?
The first photo of the car is timed 19:54:26 and the photo of the gantry is timed 19:54:27, so I'm not sure "long after" is accurate. These cameras have a minimum 10 second delay in enforcement after a speed limit change, and if challenged the police will turn up with expert evidence to show how the equipment works. The record also shows the 40 mph limit had been in force for over an hour at the time when you went past the camera.

Are you basically saying that the sign said 50 mph at 19:54:25 or 19:54:26 when you went past it, and it changed in the split second between 19:54:26 and 19:54:27, and the system that is meant to pause enforcement for 10 seconds was faulty, and the record showing when the limit last changes was also faulty?

You can advance that as a defence if you wish, but you will probably want to instruct an expert who can provide expert evidence about how the system could have malfunctioned, because the Crown Prosecution Service will undoubtedly instruct an expert of their own if challenged.

This can be an expensive approach though, see this case: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-49641063

Thank you for your reply.

Whilst it may seem implausible yes I am talking about finite moments here, as there is no alternative.  Their photo of the roundels is at 19:54:27.  Of course they will show my vehicle at the exact same time in support of that.  Why isn't there a photo of my vehicle passing underneath is the question and answer to all of this.  Yes it did happen in seconds and I would say a couple because we have travelled about 40 metres in that time. 

There is either an issue with the grace period not being implemented on the particular roundel/ gantry camera, or and I have read that the speed limits can be switched manually by an actual person yes a person - remember there was a far worse incident (of the two we had come through) up ahead and I think someone has panicked and grace period has not operated (perhaps this does not happen when a manual override occurs).  The entire motorway was closed off ahead and everyone was forced to slip off. A serious incident had taken place ahead and yes the speed ought to have been 40, but it wasn't.  None of what had happened ahead could be observed until passing under the gantry as you can see yourself from the bend in the motorway.

NewJudge

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2025, 06:11:58 pm »
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The photographic evidence does not showing us prior to or passing under the gantry.  That evidence they have in their possesion - it is a full defence to this.

How do you know what they have?

The photographs you’ve posted here are the standard set for those detected speeding by HADEC3 systems: two photographs of the vehicle after it had passed the gantry and one taken almost simultaneously of the gantry display (to show the limit that was displayed). There is sometimes a fourth showing  close-up of the vehicle for identification.

Why would they have – or require – photographs of your vehicle prior to you passing the gantry? The offence is only committed when you pass the speed limit sign.

From what you have shown us, the offence seems complete. What you will be suggesting to the court is that the gantry display changed between the time you passed under it (when you claim it was showing “50”) and the time your vehicle was snapped and a photograph of the gantry display was taken simultaneously, probably about a second later. On top of that you will be arguing that (a) the delay in enforcement of at least ten seconds (I think the delay is actually a minimum of 60 seconds, but no matter) after a change of limit failed and (b) that the system showing that the lower limit had been imposed for more than an hour prior to your arrival was also faulty.

If your contention about the "manual override" of the system overcoming these constraints is sound you will need to get some evidence of that. I don't know whether such a difference in operation exists but my instinct would suggest to me that it does not.

What you are asking for on here is concurrence with your line of defence. Going on what you have shown us I cannot concur and I doubt the court will unless you come up with some other evidence to show that the system had failed - or had been overridden as you describe.

If you do find out that anything was amiss with the system do let us know. I, for one, am intrigued.

Southpaw82

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2025, 06:15:25 pm »
Well, ignore any offers, go to court, plead not guilty and see what happens.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

ukdriver1981

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2025, 07:53:18 pm »
"Yes, smart motorway speed limits can be changed manually by staff in the Regional Control Centres (RCCs), as well as being set automatically by computer systems."

"Manual Intervention: Operators in the Regional Control Centres also monitor the motorways via CCTV and data from the sensors. They can manually intervene to set speed limits and display warning messages or "Red X" lane closures in response to real-time events like accidents, breakdowns, or roadworks, overriding the automatic system when necessary."

This is what has happened I feel because someone has panicked that three lanes ahead are closed and all traffic has bottlenecked into the slip road.  However even at 50 it wasn't an issue as there was plenty of distance in which to slow down and react. 

If it was not due to an imperfect automated system than this is the only explanation left.  Someone switches it and the automatic grace period doesn't apply for the obvious reason that there is an imminent danger.  Don't forget a car behind us was also flashed - why would he be doing over 40 when it was likely the change came into his view - it's because he either did not have time to react and the grace period was not afforded to him either.

Southpaw82

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2025, 08:03:52 pm »
It’s not us you have to convince.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

andy_foster

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2025, 09:17:36 pm »
So, your explanation for how your version of events differs from the evidence disclosed is that there was manual intervention due to a perceived serious danger (as opposed to reducing the speed limits because the operator is bored), *and* that due to the perceived serious danger, the 10 second grace period enshrined in statute was over-ruled because the most effective way to convey an immediate threat is to issue an illegal NIP through the post. And to falsify the logs as to when the limits changed.

Lets assume for a moment, that the evidence was falsified, and that those who falsified it have evidence that they did so. How are you planning on getting them to pony up that evidence?

And perhaps more importantly, who do I invoice for the popcorn?
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

cp8759

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2025, 12:03:01 am »
Why isn't there a photo of my vehicle passing underneath is the question and answer to all of this.
The Crown will say that no such evidence is required, HADECS 2 cameras didn't have any gantry photos at all and plenty of people were still found guilty. The technical answer is probably that the camera is triggered by a speeding vehicle, and they don't constantly film the gantry just in case a speeding car goes past.

Yes it did happen in seconds and I would say a couple because we have travelled about 40 metres in that time. 
If the Crown presents credible evidence as to how the system works, and expert evidence that the system was working at the time, the court will presume that the system was working correctly and it will be your burden to show that it wasn't.

There is either an issue with the grace period not being implemented on the particular roundel/ gantry camera, or and I have read that the speed limits can be switched manually by an actual person yes a person
The Crown will simply argue that you are mistake or are lying, saying you've read something somewhere won't get you far. If you want to pursue this line of defence, you need to instruct an expert witness who can back up your hypothesis with some solid science.

As noted above it doesn't matter what we think, we're not the ones you have to convince. But if you try arguing a defence like this without expert evidence to back it up, your chances of success are remote in the extreme unless the CPS doesn't present any evidence or the police miss the six month prosecution deadline.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

NewJudge

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Re: Please help with unfair speeding ticket
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2025, 01:03:09 pm »
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Someone switches it and the automatic grace period doesn't apply for the obvious reason that there is an imminent danger.

Having though about it, I believe there would be absolutely no point in doing that. It is quite obvious that a vehicle almost upon the gantry (or indeed just beyond it, as you claim) cannot possibly reduce speed in an instant. The purpose of reducing the speed limit is for safety.

The only reason to reduce the "grace period" to zero would be to prosecute drivers who had no chance of complying with the reduced limit and that would be malicious. It would do nothing for the primary aim of safety.

I may appear naive but I do not believe the police or the Highways agency would be complicit in imposing such a system and for that reason I believe you may be mistaken in your assumption. But so might I.
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