Author Topic: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations  (Read 3007 times)

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Hi all. I've received the below letter in the post, NIP with a demand to identify the driver. Whilst I appreciate this is £100/no points to make go away, I feel I would like to view the evidence and potentially challenge it. I believe I know where the camera was which will be used for evidence reasons, and if this is true then I do not believe it could have caught adequate evidence to prove the registration did not conform to regulations.
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The registration mark meets the regulations, but its placement may be challenged (it's offset to one side). Whilst you can definitely read it at 45 degrees from one side of the vehicle, it may be tricky from the other side (think alfa romeo plate to the side kind of setup). The evidence camera would have been on the side of the road where the plate is facing, so absolutely no way they could tell that it may not be visible from the obtuse angle (+90 degrees laterally).
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I assume I should proceed with supplying driver details? £100 is cheaper than £1000...
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Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #1 on: »
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I do not believe it could have caught adequate evidence to prove the registration did not conform to regulations.

I don't quite understand what your argument is.

I assume you are not disputing it was your car. That being the case, the camera was sufficiently well placed to capture its registration mark or you would not have received the notice.

Whatever issues you have with the allegation itself you must respond to the request for driver's details.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2024, 03:24:04 pm by NewJudge »
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Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #2 on: »
Is there a photo?  It's doubtful there would be enough details of the plate regarding maker/supplier/ BS marks from a fixed camera photograph 'cos hundreds of 'iffy' plates must be flashed every day

Regarding how the plate is attached the regs for display are

The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001


where one corner of the square is immediately below the middle of the plate and the diagonal of the square from that corner is parallel to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle;
The diagonal length of the relevant area is—

(a)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is at least 57 millimetres, 22 metres,

(ip refers tob)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is 50 millimetres, 21.5 metres,
n
(c)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is 44 millimetres, 18 metres.


But the NIP does not refer to "display"
« Last Edit: November 11, 2024, 03:58:43 pm by baroudeur »

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #3 on: »
Is there a photo?  It's doubtful there would be enough details of the plate regarding maker/supplier/ BS marks from a fixed camera photograph 'cos hundreds of 'iffy' plates must be flashed every day

I have no idea what evidence there is yet, I assume I will be able to see that once I identify the driver. I'm familiar with the regs you posted and as above, it's possible that it only meets the diagonal view from one angle, not t'other. BUT how would they prove that with a photo from one angle? That's going to be my point in the future, I suspect.

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #4 on: »
Apologies, I understand where you are coming from now.

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I have no idea what evidence there is yet, I assume I will be able to see that once I identify the driver.

No you won't. If you are offered a fixed penalty you either accept the allegation as it stands or you decline (or ignore) the offer and face prosecution in court. Only then will you be provided with he evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you.

If you intend to do that you need to make sure you are fully familiar with the regs because failure will be very expensive. This diagram explains it:

https://ibb.co/Cw0qfSB

The point of area from  which the plate needs to be readable is beneath the centre point of the plate, not the car so you need to bear that in mind if your plate is offset.

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #5 on: »
Apologies, I understand where you are coming from now.

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I have no idea what evidence there is yet, I assume I will be able to see that once I identify the driver.

No you won't. If you are offered a fixed penalty you either accept the allegation as it stands or you decline (or ignore) the offer and face prosecution in court. Only then will you be provided with he evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you.

If you intend to do that you need to make sure you are fully familiar with the regs because failure will be very expensive. This diagram explains it:

https://ibb.co/Cw0qfSB

The point of area from  which the plate needs to be readable is beneath the centre point of the plate, not the car so you need to bear that in mind if your plate is offset.

Thanks, I am not sure I am interpreting your drawing properly. This is my interpretation of the regulations below. It's interesting that you point out it's based on the location of the plate, not the centre of the car (of course not ALL cars have the plate mounted centrally). Whilst that is of slight benefit in my case, potentially, it may not be enough. However, I still want to know how they can prove the contravention by having a single point of view from the roadside.

I've also included an indicative photo of the plate location from the front perspective.

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2024, 06:10:38 pm by ft_sjo »

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #6 on: »
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Thanks, I am not sure I am interpreting your drawing properly. This is my interpretation of the regulations below.

We're singing from the same hymn sheet. It's just that your diagram does not limit the area of the square from which the characters must  be distinguished.

The 21.5m "diagonal" defines the size of the square. That 21.5m applies where 50mm characters are used. There is a different measurement when other sizes of characters are used. The regulation actually says this:

In this Part the following expressions shall have the following meanings—

“diagonal length”, in relation to a relevant area, means the length of a line drawn diagonally across the square enclosing the area (so that the extent of the relevant area is thereby delimited);
« Last Edit: November 11, 2024, 09:01:34 pm by NewJudge »

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #7 on: »
If you are replying to the previous post in its entirety, there is no need to quote it!
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #8 on: »

The NIP refers to Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994.  The section appropriate seems to be

"The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe—

(a)the size, shape and character of registration marks to be fixed on any vehicle, and

(b)the manner in which registration marks are to be displayed and rendered easily distinguishable (whether by day or by night)."


Why are you so sure it's a fixed camera involved?  It seems strange thata relatively minor offence would warrant such attention.  Is there more to this matter than appears at first reading?

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #9 on: »
It seems strange that a relatively minor offence would warrant such attention.  Is there more to this matter than appears at first reading?

That was my thought too...  Is it on the plate it was MOT'd on?  It's presumably been unreadable by the computer and flagged for human intervention, so unlikely it is a minor technical infringement on placement. 

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #10 on: »
Is it technically possible for a fixed camera to show if a front registration plate of a moving vehicle is attached in compliance with the specified measurement? Unless, of course, it's so badly placed it's obvious!

A photo taken manually as evidence would, normally, result in a windscreen notice.




Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #11 on: »
@baroudeur @RichardW - Thanks for your replies. To give some extra context (there's always some, right?):

There was an event for the public held at a commercial premises. At least in one instance, the police had set themselves up road-side nearby to 'catch' potential offenders leaving the event.

As far as I am aware, the police were only present on the near-side of the road, pulling people into a layby. I do not know what device or location was used to capture evidence in relation to the allegations against me. My assumption it was a mobile/portable camera used as part of this temporary road-side posture.

@RichardW - To answer your MOT question, yes the vehicle was MOT'd with this plate. However, the MOT rules don't go into the same level of detail as the Act would require (e.g. MOT tester isn't going to stand 22 metres away from the vehicle at 45 degrees to read the plate).

@baroudeur The vehicle would have been moving at time of evidence capturing, so no notice on the vehicle, hence the NIP.

So did return the s172 request, and the Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty arrived last week.. Attached to post. Looks like I wouldn't get to see any evidence, as people have pointed out, unless I take it to court.

I am pretty confident that there is practically no way the police could have clear evidence that the plate was not fully readable from a 90 degree window of viewing. They may have it from one viewpoint, but multiple? Doubtful.

It's just £100, I get it. I also think things should be right and proper, but as I get older I am somewhat of a pragmatist, and appreciate there's no practical way the police could enforce this rule whilst a vehicle is mobile, unless the plate is missing or something very obvious.

What are the potential implications of taking this to court? Is there a way this could go to court and not cost me more than £100? Even taking time off work is worth more than that to me.

What if I am found guilty? Is that a criminal record? I get DBS checked for my job. I need to consider this.

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« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 11:32:51 am by ft_sjo »

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #12 on: »
This is not a recordable offence, so no criminal record.

Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #13 on: »
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Is there a way this could go to court and not cost me more than £100?
Yes, if you plead not guilty and are acquitted. If you are convicted it will cost you probably £1k. Even with a guilty plea, the prosecution costs alone will be around £100. The "victim surcharge" might double that (depending on your income) and that's before you get to the fine).
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Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with regulations
« Reply #14 on: »

Why do you think there is photo involved? It may be that your vehicle was seen arriving at, or inspected at, the "public meeting on private property" and a non-compliant plate noticed.  Leaving the property onto the highway with same plate resulted in the NIP being issued.

It seems unlikely that it has anything to do with the offset mounting of the plate but about the details on the plate. You posted "However, the MOT rules don't go into the same level of detail as the Act would require" which suggests that your plate  does not conform fully.

A not guilty plea to see the evidence could be an expensive alternative to a £100 penalty.