Author Topic: NIP x 3 - New 'Speed on Green' install + limit reduction 40>30 - Insufficient Signage for speed Reduction  (Read 672 times)

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EyeZyer

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Hello All,

My first time posting, as its my first time getting a speeding fine in 27 years of driving, sorry 3 speeding fines, in 4 days from the same 'Red Light, Speed on Green) camera installed around a month ago.

The road in question is,

A59 County Road, Ormskirk between the junctions of (A570 Southport Road, Halsall Lane, also know as the 5-ways), and the junction onto the housing estate, and road of the same name 'High Grove Park'.

The A59 passes through Ormskirk and out towards Liverpool and has had a 40Mph speed limit, for as long as I can remember, I have lived in the area for the last 14 years

The A59 heading west to Burscough changed up to national speed limit approximately 500m from the junction with the B5319 (Burscough Road). The new housing estate 'High Grove Park' build started around 5 Years ago, and the limit was dropped from 40mph to 30mph for the section of the A59 between the B5319 and the nation speed limit just mentioned (heading towards Burscough)

Last month the 'safety' cameras were installed on the 5-ways junction, and on the A59 junction with Green Lane and Hayfield Road.  I have know found out that this also included a reduction from 40mph to 30mph.

My comment about insufficient signage relates to the fact that the original 40Mph speed change sign has been moved from just after the junction with the B5319 (heading east into Ormskirk) to the other side of the new 'safety lights', so any driver who was a regular user of this road (and I was) is unlikely to notice the moved 40Mph sign and will continue as normal at what was the 40Mph limit.

Have been unlucky to have done this 3 times before the first NIP letter came through, and I drove down there to take a look.

Whilst I realise from the laws perspective, speeding is an absolute crime, either you were speeding or your weren't. I was doing 37mph, 41mph and 41mph, so according to the 40mph limit I was compliant....

What hope do I have of contesting this as I drive around 500 miles a week getting to and from work, and I'm guessing my insurance will go sky high... Fuel is a big enough cost, I can't also an afford a hike in my insurance, but feel really disgruntled as there just isn't enough signs to highlight the speed change.

Also, I had already accepted the 1st NIP as there was a delay in getting the others, can I also contest that one now too?

One last thing, is there any 'freedom of information request' for me to see how many people this has caught out in the 5 weeks they have been active? I know lots of people in the area, and already 3 people have also said they have been fined, so I can't be just me, and feel's like the 'tip of the iceberg' scenario...

Any advice appreciated.  Thank you

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666

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You can't "accept" or "contest" a NIP: it' just a notice.

You must respond naming the driver. You will then receive offers of out-of-court disposals, and can decide whether to opt for court to make your case.

If you can post photos of the signage someone will advise whether it is compliant.

The Rookie

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If you respond putting the two (and referencing the third) in one envelope with a covering letter asking for some consideration due to not noting the small change in limit start point they may (and forces have in the past) drop one or two cases.

Otherwise you will get one awareness course offer (assuming you haven't completed one in the last 3 years)and 2 fixed penalties of 3pts.

You would, as you probably realise, have no defence in court* UNLESS you can show a defect in the traffic regulation order that sets the limit (it's not unknown).  There would have to be a TRO that 'moved' that start of the 40 (extended the 30) past the junction - Limits aren't 'set' by the signs, they are set by the TRO, the signs merely inform you of the limit set by the TRO.

*It's hard to imagine the signage is inadequate when you KNEW you were already in a 30 limit, all that's happened is that the signs for an increase in the limit have been moved back.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 10:57:31 am by The Rookie »
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

BertB

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Also, I had already accepted the 1st NIP as there was a delay in getting the others, can I also contest that one now too?

Can you expand on this part? What sort of delay and for how long?

RichardW

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Can't quite make out where you were snapped, and I think you have mixed up East and West, but GSV seems to show the 30mph limit extending to the West side of the 5-ways as far back as Mar '23.


sparxy

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The 40mph limit was changed on the A59 between March 2019 and July 2019. If you can pinpoint where you were snapped, plus the location of any signage, that will help people possibly gather the TRO's... when you say "40mph sign" what do you mean? A 40mph sign, such as this one?:

There is a gateway/terminal sign here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/NbqWABnciUj8u9Ad8 that has been in the same place since 2019.

Quote
I was doing 37mph, 41mph and 41mph, so according to the 40mph limit I was compliant....

You were compliant for one of them, and speeding the others. Exceeding the speed limit by even 1mph is technically speeding. A lot of speedos will overread slightly, so being caught at 41mph means you could have been doing 43-45 or so on your speedo (vehicle dependent).


If there are no speed signs, but a system of street lights then it marks a restricted road, so 30mph. So if you don't pass said 40mph sign, it's still 30.

EyeZyer

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So - Thank you for the responses, and apologies that I haven't come back sooner.

There was a question posted by 'Rookie' - about delay between receiving the 1st NIP and the 2nd two, it was only a few days, but the 5 days in between the first offence, and receiving the initial NIP was the nail in the coffin, as I received NIP2 and NIP3 on the 16th June (4 days after they were issued on the 12th June).


'Richard W' has asked about the speed limit and looking as though it was in place since Mar 23. The installation was approved in Mar 23, but the install and go-live were done much later. The speed limit was 40 Mph, up until around the 17th April 2024 when they were actually finished and the limits became live.

Another comment by 'Rookie' is where I want further advice. The 30 Mph limits for the stretch of the A59 covering the Highrove Park estate, and then became a 40 Mph just past the junction with the B5319, so having driven the road for many years, then not realising the uplift to 40Mph had been removed needs to be considered.

I have driven the route at night, as I am still stumped as to how I missed the signs (there are square red/white signs saying a new 30 Mph speed limit is in effect.  The attached pictures will show how that happened!  I have also found the .gov.uk publications in relation to the standards that should be followed when deploying signage -

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs-manual


Section 5.4 Mounting Signs  - states

5.4.1. Signs should be mounted such that the lower edge of the sign is generally between
900 mm and 1500 mm above the highest point of the adjacent carriageway. Signs mounted at the lower end of this range benefit from receiving the most illumination from vehicle headlamps, but they are also prone to soiling due to spray from passing vehicles. Mounting heights at the higher end of the range should be used where this or obscuration by other vehicles is likely
to be a problem. Speed limit signs and other safety-critical signs will not normally be mounted lower than 1500 mm above the carriageway.

These signs are mounted approximately 6 metres laterally from the road, and are over 3 metres in height. Most of them also have obstruction due to trees/foliage covering them. When driving at 30 Mph, I Have timed the window of visibility to be between 1 and 2 seconds before you drive past them).

[ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

So with such poor visibility due to foliage obstruction, low lighting due to it being night time, poor light reflection from the sign due to the distance and height it is set back from the carriageway, and a window of between 1 and 3 seconds for the driver to see the sign, this would explain why it was easy to miss.  There are a couple of other signs that aren't obstructed by foliage, but as they are mounted in the same way, they reflect very little light and therefore have reduced visibility.

I have also attached some images taken during the day, to illustrate that the signage on this road is atrocious due to foliage obstructing existing signs. Going back to the comment about missing the uplift from 30 Mph to 40 Mph just after the B5319. The image below is taken where that 40 Mph sign was originally located. There are 2 other signs hidden by leaves, so how would anyone notice the 40 Mph sign disappearing..?

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

I hope the above helps. I have accepted being the driver, and hope to challenge them in court. I know My odds are low, at the end of the day I was speeding, but I genuinely didn't realise the limit had changed. Not because I wasn't paying attention, but at night because of where the signs are located they get very little light reflection (the images are taken using a new iPhone, which knows its at night/low light levels so will compensate and make the signs seem brighter than they are to the naked eye!), it also doesn't help that foliage obstructs 75% on the signs, meaning you have a couple of seconds of clear visibility before you drive past them.


I just hope what I believe to be a compelling argument is reflected by what the experts say (i.e. you guys!!)

Again, thank you all so much of taking the time to help me. I never under estimate the kindness of strangers, and that is clearly evident here as people are taking time to help someone they have never met, and probably won't ever meet.

so, thank you - EyeZyer

EyeZyer

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Its not allowing me to attach images saying the storage is full...  :'(

666

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Its not allowing me to attach images saying the storage is full...  :'(
You need to upload the photos to an imaging site (e.g. imgur.com) and then post a link here.

slapdash

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A street view location may be useful, it may become clearer with the photos and the map.


NewJudge

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Quote
“I have accepted being the driver,…”
Did you ask the police to consider combining the offences as suggested by Rookie?

The signage guidance you have quoted is just that – guidance. Essentially all a court will be interested in is whether the limit was “adequately conveyed”.

if you plead not guilty to these allegations the burden will fall to you to show that it was not. I won’t get too bogged down with the prospects of success – I’ll leave that to others. Instead I’ll concentrate on the cost of failure, of which I think you ought to be aware,

The 37mph offence will attract a fine of half a week’s net income and the 41 mph offences a fine of one week each. The court may consider reducing this total a little butt you cannot rely on it. In addition you will pay a 40% “victim surcharge” on the total fines levied. As well as that the prosecution will ask for around £620 in costs and possibly more if they have to enlist an expert to counter your argument.  You will see three points for the lower speed and four points each for the 41mph offences. The guidance does suggest a short ban may be considered for those offences but I doubt that will be considered.

So in the event of failure you are looking at probably the thick end on a month’s income and eleven points. By contrast, accepting the out-of-court disposals you will almost certainly be offered will cost you £300 and six points. If it was me, the eleven points alone would make me think long and hard.

EyeZyer

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Hi all - Again, thank you for your time and help.

I have uploaded a few images to my webspace. I can't work out how to add the videos yet, but I will. I have emailed Lancashire PAS as Rookie suggested to combine the offences - I await a response

https://www.thantheother.com/PAS/pas.html

The images (I hope) show the reduced visibility of the signs, and (hopefully) explain why I managed to miss them at night...

If I am being a complete idiot here, and I need new glasses... please let me know, as there is no use me convincing myself I have a case, if the rest of the world disagrees!

Thank you.

sparxy

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The limit is set back up the road, then there is a system of street lighting denoting a restricted road: https://maps.app.goo.gl/XJ5Zk2AdD8fnNwaQ8

Halsall Lane has the 30mph signs when you rejoin the A59 because Halsall Lane itself is 20mph (according to street view from 2015). Cameras are also notoriously bad at showing lights at night (unless they have very very good HDR) - notice your last photo is extremely dark compared to the second to last photo.

If you have come from the location in the link above, you've driven quite a way in a 30! The lack of repeaters and a system of street lighting should have twigged you to the fact it was, in fact, not any speed other than a 30mph.


As for the date the speed limit changed:

High Lane S/B: https://maps.app.goo.gl/rRxRfTxzh1Zdeviq5

JN A59/Burscough Road: https://maps.app.goo.gl/2aSruwqZg96nk4VU7

JN Green Lane/A59: https://maps.app.goo.gl/sRaDnPhrvyXhizD86

JN Southport Road/A59: https://maps.app.goo.gl/UcHoUhK9xFP5Pkhs6

JN A570 / A59: https://maps.app.goo.gl/QTZc5SRyf57Jn2yk7

If you look at the streetview links, you can scroll the dates using the "See More Dates" link on a computer. The limit must have changed mid-2019 (as I alluded to in my last post) as the 40mph signs have disappeared from the side roads that were 30's, loss of 40mph repeaters, and the change of the terminal 40mph for 30mph sign on High Lane.

Unless I'm way off on where 5 ways is, I cannot see how the limit changed in 2023, unless the supporting docs were never put in place until now.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 04:02:08 am by sparxy »

The Rookie

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If the sign was merely moved from one side of the junction to the other, what possible signage could they put in that would tell you of that change given the signs are already there to do just that?

You were already in a 30 and just failed to keep decent observation that the transition to the 40 now came later.

Apart from giving the bench a chuckle, taking that to court would be pointless.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

EyeZyer

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Hiya all,

The Rookie and sparky - thank you for your responses.

In the cold light of day, it does actually look like I am a complete bell-end and have been driving 40 in a 30 for some time... habitually when I've drove it, it was always 40,  so.. meh.. its a 40 😬 (that's my mind overruling reason, which clearly it shouldn't be allowed to, as that was got me f**ked in the first place)

I know that is the worst excuse (it's always been a 40...), but.. I was a petrolhead when I was younger, my 1st car was a Volkswagen Scirocco 1.8 16v GTII 130 hp, my second car was a 230 hp Toyota Supra 3.0l Turbo, my GSXR750 did 0-60 in 2.9 seconds and I topped it out at 170 Mph on the M58 motorway (I'm not proud!)...  so I did all of the speed....

Then, 24 years ago... my son was born, I became an adult, and I started to drive like I was delivering milk, in an electric float... (you have to be of a certain age to understand...)

So... In my 28 years of driving (even with the crazy rear wheel drive Toyota's), I have never had any driving offence, no points, nothing... so wind forwards 20+ years, I am an older man,I drive a Volvo diesel (safest cars on the road!!), and drive like I am driving Miss Daisy... (again, you have to be of a certain age...)

I go and completely bollox it up,  getting 3 fines consecutively....

I'm just probably pissed off and looking to point blame... I really did think I was a safe driver..?

Anyways... I'll take a proper look at what you have sent over (just in case I'm not a complete bell-end!), and will feed back as I think there are 30 signs on some of the tributary roads off this stretch of the A59 suggesting to speed change, but I could just be chasing a complete figment of my imagination....

..and I thought I was an attentive driver...

Again, thank you so much for taking the time, if only to point out that I probably shouldn't be driving... 😂