Author Topic: NIP red light A240  (Read 206 times)

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NIP red light A240
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Good afternoon everyone,
Just received an NIP as a keeper and I'm still trying to understand what the driver did wrong to trigger the camera.
Offence: Drive on road other than motorway, fail comply with red/green arrow/lane closure light signals - automatic equipment.
Location: A240 Kingston Rd j/w Jubilee Way N/B KT4 (5020).
Recorded time into Red: 1 seconds.

I'm not familiar with the area, but here is the Google Maps link (travelling Northbound) :
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · google.com


And here is the link to the evidence:
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The car in question is the blue Audi.

The first picture showing the car before the box junction does not seem to be relevant to an alleged offence.
The second and the third pictures show the car already past the stop line and the traffic lights. The car in front is apparently stalled, while the cars in the middle and left lanes kept moving. Evidence showing the car crossing the line was either not provided or does not exist, therefore I'm struggling to understand how the offence occurred.

As it is from the police - there is no option to appeal or ask questions, just to identify the driver.

I'd appreciate your understanding of the alleged offence and recommended actions.
Thank you.

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Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #1 on: »
As it is from the police - there is no option to appeal or ask questions, just to identify the driver.
There is no 'appeal'.  (The driver has not been convicted)

Following an allegation of an offence then the sausage-machine kicks in.  The driver identity is requested, then the usual 'out of court' disposal will be offered - but the driver always has the option to take the matter to court should they want to defend (not appeal) the allegation.

The Police can always be engaged - but they may not choose to engage prior to court.

I'd appreciate your understanding of the alleged offence and recommended actions.
From what I see in the photo's (they are not the full evidential versions) is that the blue Audi is straddling the stop line (bottom left picture) whilst the light is red.  Then in some small interval (Usually around 0.5s) the car has cleared the stop line (bottom right picture).

The offence is committed if any part of the vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is illuminated - this appears to be the case?

I'll note the silver car in front appears to be stationary.  To me it looks like the traffic lights changed and the silver car came to a halt past the stop line and the blue Audi 'swerved' around them.  The silver car appears to have its brake lights illuminated on both snaps.

The top left picture is just a close up of the alleged offending vehicle.

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #2 on: »
Agree with the above, the blue car clearly moved over the stop line when the lights were on red.

Name the driver and let them take what they are offered.

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #3 on: »
Just received an NIP as a keeper and I'm still trying to understand what the driver did wrong to trigger the camera.

Whilst the proving who was driving is an essential element of proving the red light offence, the penalty for failing to name the driver is 6 points and a hefty fine, so the obfuscation appropriate to private parking is mostly pointless as regards minor criminal motoring offences.

Quote
Offence: Drive on road other than motorway, fail comply with red/green arrow/lane closure light signals - automatic equipment.
Location: A240 Kingston Rd j/w Jubilee Way N/B KT4 (5020).
Recorded time into Red: 1 seconds.

Whilst the wording of the NIP is atrocious insofar as they appear to have taken the view that specifying the nature of the offence is variously far too much like hard work and not their problem, the 1 second into red, the photos and the rest of your post suggest that the error is not fatal.

The first photo is clearly a zoomed in copy of the second photo - whether to make the VRM easier to read, or to give the best chance of identifying the driver.

If, as you claim, the blue Audi had already cleared the stop line in the second photo, then there is no evidence of the offence being committed.
However, as explained above, you claim is substantially at odds with the evidence you purport to have based it on.

When dealing with prosecution evidence, or evidence that will be in the prosecution's possession, it is a complete waste of everyone's time to lie about what it shows.

I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you for looking into this. I'd say that on a busy road it is not realistic for the driver to ascertain if the rear wheels are a few centimetres on the either side of the line when most of the body is past it. Which brings me to a scenario about how the red light cameras work (it is likely the one that occurred):if a car stopped over the line for whatever reason (car in front, emergency vehicle, pedestrian) and the light changed to red - will the camera be triggered? Or only if the car keeps moving? And if a car has to move for any reason (e.g. driver behind it not intending to stop)?
"The offence is committed if any part of the vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is illuminated " - is the camera triggered by the weight of the wheels or by any part of the body passing? I'm just trying to work out the proper course of action for a driver who crossed the stop line on green or yellow but had to stop and the light changed to red.
I always believed - apparently wrong - that the offence is to start crossing the line (or moving past the camera) after the light had turned red and the car that had already crossed the line has either to keep moving or to stop - whichever is safe.

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #5 on: »
Amber is displayed for 3 seconds (+/- 0.25s) prior to red and means the same as red, i.e. stop.

However, you are allowed to pass at amber if you cannot (safely) stop prior to the stop line, i.e you are just too close to it when the light changes from green to amber.  Many seem to think the amber phase is some sort of signal to speed up or keep going until red is seen.  (Anecdotally more so in London)

So a time into red of 1 second is actually jumping the lights at around 4 seconds - plenty of time to stop if possible.  There's no need to ascertain whether the rear wheels are a few centimetres over the stop line - you're either coming to stop or continuing before red is illuminated.

If you come to a stop fully past the stop line then you can continue when it's safe to do so.  (Realistically most will wait for the lights to go green again)

It's also fine to come to a stop straddling the stop line - the offence occurs if any part of the vehicle moves over the line whilst red is illuminated.

If you look at the streetview you can see the buried piezoelectric sensors (They convert pressure into electric signals).  They are strategically placed around the stop line and they sense moving objects over them.  The sensors can be arranged in multiple pairs and can also operate as 'speed on green' cameras.

The above should answer your questions.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:02:28 pm by JustLoveCars »

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #6 on: »
Thanks for the explanation. I now understand the nature of the offence, though the position of the rear wheels is not visible in the evidence. This scenario of a car fully or partially past the stop line when the light changes is quite common, I need to work out the correct action in any future case. And I have to admit that I can't see the sensors around the stop line on the Street View.

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #7 on: »
though the position of the rear wheels is not visible in the evidence.
If Stevie Wonder is your Judge then that 'defence' may work.

And I have to admit that I can't see the sensors around the stop line on the Street View.
See Here

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks for the explanation. I now understand the nature of the offence, though the position of the rear wheels is not visible in the evidence. This scenario of a car fully or partially past the stop line when the light changes is quite common, I need to work out the correct action in any future case. And I have to admit that I can't see the sensors around the stop line on the Street View.
If you think the position of the rear wheels is relevant, then I'd suggest that you do not in fact "understand the nature of the offence".

As already explained, the offence is committed if any part of the vehicle crosses the line when prohibited.

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #9 on: »
If this forum is anything to go by, the number of posts requesting advice on alleged speeding offences far outweighs those for red light offences.

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This scenario of a car fully or partially past the stop line when the light changes is quite common.

I would suggest it’s only common amongst drivers who gun it when amber appears. It’s not common amongst those who treat amber in the same way as red – i.e. it means “stop”. Here’s why:

As explained, amber is displayed for around three seconds. When approaching traffic lights, drivers should expect them to change at any time and be prepared to stop if and when they do.

The Highway Code stopping distance from 30mph is 23 metres. Travelling at that speed you cover 13.5m/sec so you should be able to come to a halt comfortably within two seconds. You are given three seconds notice before red appears (and a bit more than that – in your case one second more - before enforcement action is taken).

Re: NIP red light A240
« Reply #10 on: »

I would suggest it’s only common amongst drivers who gun it when amber appears. It’s not common amongst those who treat amber in the same way as red – i.e. it means “stop”.

My experience - especially in large cities like London - shows that the drivers who really intend to jump the lights - do this at the expense of others. And those who crossed the stop line on green may face a number of scenarios: 1) The traffic in front of them comes to a standstill; 2) A car from another lane swerves and blocks the way forward; 3) A cyclist/pedestrian appears on your way and so on. The light changes and the car is over the stop line. And had the driver stopped before the stop line - they may never make it through as everyone from all sides will try to get in front of them. This is a common scenario where box junctions are not present.
Not to mention the scenario when the light changes to amber and you see in the mirror that the car behind you started to accelerate (when I contracted in Greece, this was one of the instructions to British drivers).
I understand this may not be the right place for a discussion, but for me it leaves a question of how not to fall a victim when you started crossing on green but were prevented from reaching the exit.