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NIP Location error
Posted by
Caffrey
on 25 Aug, 2024 18:05
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Hi, I have an NIP for 55 in a 30 which is obviously worrying, were the offence just a simple SP30 I would take the hit, I'm not disputing the speed just the location:
The van was parked on the edge of a village but well outside the area where housing begins and literally next to the sign saying welcome to *** the NIP just states the road number and the village name. The 30 limit applies throughout the village for the distance of a mile and a half, therefore to someone unfamiliar with the area it appears I was travelling way too quickly through the heart of a village which is absolutely not the case.
The gateway where the speed limit changes from 60 to 30 is a hundred yards further away from the village than the welcome sign, I'm therefore saying that my speed would have been measured OUTSIDE the village boundary because I stood on the brakes when I saw the van.
I've checked both the van position and the gateway using GPS to get an exact degrees/minutes/seconds location for both. Is it possible/does the information exist for the camera van to also provide similar data is my first question?
But also, having read other comments on this site I Don't know what to do with the NIP as replying appears to accept that I was the driver at this speed in the stated location whereas I am questioning the location, only a hundred yards but the specifics are important (I think!)
Thank you.
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Whilst the requirement to serve a NIP on the RK within 14 days is mandatory (as in fatal to any prosecution, subject to any statutory exceptions), the required details, such as time and place are "merely directory" - meaning that if the accused is aware of the incident in question, or otherwise not disadvantaged by an error in such details, the notice is not invalidated.
N.B. SP30 is the DVLA endorsement code for speeding offences on ordinary roads (not motorways), except in buses or lorries.
To the extent that a simple SP30 offence is a meaningful term, I'm curious to understand in what way you consider this not to be one.
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#2 Reply
Posted by
FuzzyDuck
on 25 Aug, 2024 19:55
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Usually as art of the session setup, the operator will measure the distance from the start of the limit change (assumed to be at the terminal sign). So if, as you say, the limit change is 100 yards away, any "ping" at a distance beyond that should be ignored.
So have you access to any pictures of the offence? Many forces make them readily available, they should show the distance from the operator when the speed was measured.
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#3 Reply
Posted by
RichardW
on 25 Aug, 2024 20:04
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It doesn't really matter where the houses are, it's where the limit is signed that counts (always assuming that the signage is actually in line with the speed limit order). You obviously remember the event, so were you past the 30 sign when you were braking?
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#4 Reply
Posted by
Caffrey
on 26 Aug, 2024 21:00
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All, many thanks for your replies, to answer your points:
To Andy, if I was facing a simple five or ten MPH over the limit I'd be looking at £100 and three points, it's been five years since I last had an NIP so I might even get a speed awareness option. But twenty five over the limit is more like six points and a means tested fine unless you're suggesting otherwise?
To Fuzzy, I don't have a picture but I hear that it's possible to get one along with the full GPS coordinates.
To Richard, no question I was in the thirty limit when pinged.
However, we've wandered off the question a bit, so.....
If I download an OS map I can see the boundary of the village, let's call it Little Whinging, I can even get GPS coordinates for where the village starts and finishes.
If for example there's a speeding offence on the motorway it simply says the speed and the name of the motorway but in my case the NIP not only states the name of the road but also where on the road the offence occurred i.e. 55 in a 30, A1234 Little Whinging.
My point is that where I was pinged is not in Little Whinging, it outside the boundary of the village which I can prove using GPS. Therefore the NIP is wrong but does it matter???
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#5 Reply
Posted by
FuzzyDuck
on 26 Aug, 2024 21:20
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My point is that where I was pinged is not in Little Whinging, it outside the boundary of the village which I can prove using GPS. Therefore the NIP is wrong but does it matter???
The location doesn't have to be that exact. Anyway, the camera van was inside the village limits and they think you were too. Unless you can prove otherwise.
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#6 Reply
Posted by
Caffrey
on 26 Aug, 2024 21:34
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I'm virtually certain neither the van or my car when pinged were in the boundary of the village according to the OS map
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#7 Reply
Posted by
Southpaw82
on 26 Aug, 2024 21:39
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I'm virtually certain neither the van or my car when pinged were in the boundary of the village according to the OS map
To which the question is, so what? There seems to be little doubt over where you were caught, in fact you even saw the van and reacted to its presence. The job of the NIP is to allow you to recognise the offence and when and where it took place. Job done in that regard.
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#8 Reply
Posted by
NewJudge
on 26 Aug, 2024 22:16
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But also, having read other comments on this site I Don't know what to do with the NIP as replying appears to accept that I was the driver at this speed in the stated location whereas I am questioning the location, only a hundred yards but the specifics are important (I think!)
Thank you.
You will not find any advice on here other than that you
must respond to the request for driver's details. Failure to do so will see you commit a separate offence which carries six points and an endorsement code that will influence your insurance premiums to a greater extent than speeding.
Doing so will not prejudice any defence you might want to make against the speeding offence based on the precise location. They are asking you who was driving at that time in that vicinity. You recollect the occasion and you know you were driving so you must reply to that effect. If you qualify your response with "it wasn't exactly there" or similar, there is a likelihood the police will not accept that as an unequivocal response.
If you want to raise the issue with the police I suggest you enclose a separate letter with your response but do not leave them in any doubt that you were the driver at the relevant time. I doubt it will make any difference to their decision and your case will be dealt with in court anyway as 55mph is too fast for a fixed penalty. When you receive the court papers you will be served with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you, so you can decide then how to proceed.
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If you feel the need to respond to the s. 172 requirement "correctly", feel free to do so in the form of a signed letter stating that whilst you were driving the vehicle in question at the location specified at or around the time specified, the offence, or more precisely the location where you believe you were actually caught, was slightly before the village boundary.
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#10 Reply
Posted by
The Rookie
on 27 Aug, 2024 09:19
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If for example there's a speeding offence on the motorway it simply says the speed and the name of the motorway
No it doesn't, as that would fail the 'Young v Day' test, you're just making stuff up there.
Even if we ignore you know exactly where it occurred, IMO your NIP passes that test and is not wrong despite your (mistaken IMO) belief it is. The location just have to be sufficient to provide the recipient with a reasonable idea of where the offence occurred, that you were not within the boundary is irrelevant to that, unless the length of road that can reasonably be covered by that description is long (4 miles was considered too long in Young V Day) then your point is an irrelevance IMO.
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#11 Reply
Posted by
BertB
on 27 Aug, 2024 10:51
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The gateway where the speed limit changes from 60 to 30 is a hundred yards further away from the village than the welcome sign, I'm therefore saying that my speed would have been measured OUTSIDE the village boundary because I stood on the brakes when I saw the van.
To Richard, no question I was in the thirty limit when pinged.
So just for clarity, is your defence going to consist of you stating you hadn't gone past the 'welcome to village' sign?
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#12 Reply
Posted by
NewJudge
on 27 Aug, 2024 12:53
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There is one other thing perhaps worth a mention.
You have been served with two documents (even though they may be printed on the same sheet of paper). The first is the Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) and the other is the "request for driver's details". They serve different purposes and are subject to different legislation.
The NIP is to warn the recipient that the police suspect an offence has been committed and that prosecution may follow. The second is for the police to establish who was driving when that suspected offence occurred.
The NIP would only come into play as part of a prosecution for speeding if it was so deficient that it did not meet the requirements of s1 of the Road Traffic Offenders' Act (and if it was, a prosecution would fail). The Act says it must specify "...the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed...". From your description, you know from that NIP where the offence is alleged to have been committed. So well do you know it that you are prepared to contest the speeding allegation on the basis that the police have the location 100 yards (or whatever) wrong.
Similarly with the request for driver's details, if the location you are being asked about was so different to the place in question that you may doubt what location the police were asking you about, you would be entitled to respond by saying you were not there at that time or not at all or whatever is appropriate. But you have no doubt. You know exactly what location they are asking you about, even if you might query that location by a short distance as part of disputing the speeding allegation.
In short, you have no justification for responding to the the request in any way other than to say that you were the driver at the relevant time and place.
As far as the offence itself goes, I am similarly as confused as Bert is. What is this "gateway" that you mention. There is only one thing that matters and that is the position of the "30" sign. Is that sign co-located with the "gateway"?
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#13 Reply
Posted by
Logician
on 27 Aug, 2024 14:59
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Caffrey, you seem to have developed your own version of what is important in your case which is causing confusion both to us and yourself. The purpose of the location information in the NIP is to enable you to identify the incident referred to, it therefore does not have to be exact. You clearly know exactly where it was, so the location given is sufficient.
You accept the speed alleged and that you were within the 30 limit, so you are in fact admitting the offence. It does not matter for any purpose exactly where you were within the limit, whether you were in the heart of the village or on the outskirts, the offence is exceeding the limit and nothing else, it does not matter for sentencing purposes whether the area was deserted or crowded, unless you were driving carelessly or dangerously, but you have not been accused of that. Sentencing then will be based closely on the published guidelines for your speed in the limit applying.
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#14 Reply
Posted by
tonys
on 28 Aug, 2024 08:09
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Similarly with the request for driver's details, if the location you are being asked about was so different to the place in question that you may doubt what location the police were asking you about, you would be entitled to respond by saying you were not there at that time or not at all or whatever is appropriate. But you have no doubt. You know exactly what location they are asking you about, even if you might query that location by a short distance as part of disputing the speeding allegation.
Furthermore from the s172 point if view you would have entered what you consider the actual village around 6 seconds later. So there's a good chance you were literally there at the hour and minute stated.
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Agree x 1
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