Author Topic: New driver 61 in a 30  (Read 1774 times)

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New driver 61 in a 30
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Hi I got caught doing 61 in a 30 by a mobile unit in Feb when I was 17 so am a new driver. Recently recieved my court documents which I have pleaded guilty and asked for a court date. I got advice from a solicitor who said they could have a go at getting me a short ban rather than a revoked license, only problem was it £3000 which I can't afford. I hold my hands up i was an idiot, i had just been made redundant from an apprenticeship and my life had no real direction. The offence made me realise i needed to sort out my life and I got an apprenticeship in May which requires me to drive to site. I completed a pre court driving course and have a really good report on my driving awareness etc. I really love my job and don't want to lose it, if my license is revoked the process to get my license back could take 4 months and I don't think work would accommodate this. A short ban and I think I would be able to keep my job.
I have no court date yet but i am going to represent myself. I was wondering if someone could help me write my court statement or give me pointers on what and what not to say.

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Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #1 on: »
The magistrates are required not to let you avoid having your licence revoked by giving you a ban. For 61 in a 30 at least 6 points, and thus licence revocation, are am almost certainty
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Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #2 on: »
I understand that a revoked license is the most likely outcome. The solicitor did say I may have a chance. I just want to represent myself well in court. I have to try and ask for leinanacy. I know what I have done was stupid and have learnt a huge lesson.

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #3 on: »
You should be very, very careful employing a solicitor for that sum of money.  Do you know them independently?  Has somebody you know well recommended them?

I hate to say it but the fact is that there are solicitors who make a living doing these things with very little chance of success.  They sail close to the wind but just manage to stay within the SRA rules for regulatory purposes.

For those wealthy enough, give it a go, there is nothing to lose but for many it is just money down the drain.

Otherwise, morris-man is correct, magistrates are required not to let offenders avoid revocation by issuing a disqualification.

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #4 on: »
£3000 is about 6 times what you should be paying!

I presume you found them via the internet....
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote
The magistrates are required not to let you avoid having your licence revoked by giving you a ban. For 61 in a 30 at least 6 points, and thus licence revocation, are am almost certainty.

Quote
Otherwise, morris-man is correct, magistrates are required not to let offenders avoid revocation by issuing a disqualification.

That's not quite correct.

Magistrates are not required (i.e. by law) to impose points. However they are advised that to impose a disqualification when it might not otherwise be imposed would normally be inappropriate as it would circumvent the intention of Parliament: 

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/road-traffic-offences-disqualification/8-new-drivers/

"An offender liable for an endorsement which will cause the licence to be revoked under the new drivers’ provisions may ask the court to disqualify rather than impose points. This will avoid the requirement to take a further test. Generally, this would be inappropriate since it would circumvent the clear intention of Parliament."

This is similar to the situation where a driver faces a "totting up" ban and asks the court to impose a disqualification instead. However, the guidance in that case is very much more assertive:

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/road-traffic-offences-disqualification/3-totting-up-disqualification/

"The court should first consider the circumstances of the offence, and determine whether the offence should attract a discretionary period of disqualification. But the court must note the statutory obligation to disqualify those repeat offenders who would, were penalty points imposed, be liable to the mandatory “totting” disqualification and, unless the court is of the view that the offence should be marked by a period of discretionary disqualification in excess of the minimum totting up disqualification period, the court should impose penalty points rather than discretionary disqualification so that the minimum totting up disqualification period applies."

In the case of "totting up", the guidance is quite clear: unless a discretionary ban will be longer than the totting up ban would be, then points should be imposed and the driver liable to a totting up ban.

However, with the New Driver's legislation it is not so prescriptive. It simply informs Magistrates to avoid circumventing the will of Parliament. It would be trickier to be as prescriptive because there is no disqualification periods involved to make a comparison.

However, in neither case are Magistrates required to impose points. They always have discretion if they believe it is justified.

In this particular case, 61 in a 30mph limit is well into disqualification territory. The guidelines for 51mph and over suggest either a ban of up to 56 days or 6 points. When dealing with a "new Driver" and faced with this choice, it may seem confusing and it is a question, I am sure, causes some Magistrates an amount of angst. Normally a ban is seen as a more severe than points and in the case of a driver facing "totting up" it is clear that, from the guidance, a ban of at least six months (by way of either the discretionary or totting up variety) would be the outcome. In most cases, since a discretionary ban for a single offence of more than six months is seldom appropriate, points would be the answer.

But the same cannot be said when a New Driver is involved because the sanction for the driver (that of licence revocation) would, perversely some might think, involve less serious consequences if the harsher penalty was imposed. In my view, this cannot be what Parliament intended and I believe that courts should adopt he same principle as that advised when a driver faces a totting up ban: i.e. that points should be imposed so that the driver faces revocation.

This dichotomy stems from what I believe is a deficiency in the New Drivers' Act. It should include a provision such that it also applies to drivers who are subject to a ban for a single offence. However, that is perhaps Flame Pit territory.

Magistrates always have discretion to allow a driver to avoid revocation if they believe it is justified. They can impose fewer than six points (if the offence allows it) or they can impose a short ban. They have further guidance which says this. Page 22 here:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Adult-Court-Bench-Book-May-2023.pdf

"The court should consider the impact that ordering six or more points will have on a new driver. Ordering less than six points or a disqualification will not lead to a DVLA revocation of the driving licence."

This seems somewhat at odds with the guidance I provided above, but it demonstrates that Magistrates do have that discretion.

As above, I would be very wary of any solicitor who wants £3k for what is, at most, half a day of his time. At least he has only said you "may have a chance" rather than putting it any stronger than that. Make the argument yourself and if it fails, for considerably less than £3k you can secure a driving test at reasonably short notice by using the services of one of the "brokers" who hoover them up using bots to block book the appointments.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 12:53:16 pm by NewJudge »
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Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #6 on: »
Thank you for your detailed response new judge. Very helpful. I have looked into what I would need to do if my license gets revoked. Possible 3 weeks to get provisional as can't complete online. Theory test which could take a month to get a slot, then a driving test which in my area is 4 months wait but could possibly get a cancellation. There are people queuing up for my apprenticeship and I don't think work would hold out that long. I also have to drive 140 mile round trip to go to college every week so managing that for such a long time is going to be hard.
Obviously not paying £3000, I think the price was because it was a senior very experienced barrister, or so they said.
I'm going to attempt to represent myself but I have no idea what to say.

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #7 on: »
You will be starting from a position of weakness, for the reasons given above. Rather than try to avoid that, and thereby insult the court’s intelligence, it’s often better to take the bull by the horns and acknowledge that you’re asking the court to depart from the guidance issued to it.

You will then have to argue your reasons as to why the court should do as you ask. From what you have said, that seems to be that you will lose your job if you lose your licence (note the spelling) and have to re-take your test. However, you have to be careful not to take it too far, because presumably if the court just outright bans you from driving then you might lose your job anyway.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #8 on: »
Assuming that you just need to be able to get yourself to site, £3000 would pay for a lot of taxis, or a 125cc motorcycle, helmet and CBT (and change).
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #9 on: »
Assuming that you just need to be able to get yourself to site, £3000 would pay for a lot of taxis, or a 125cc motorcycle, helmet and CBT (and change).
Thanks, that's a plan didn't think of that. I have told the solicitor no as obviously its way too much.

Re: New driver 61 in a 30
« Reply #10 on: »
You will be starting from a position of weakness, for the reasons given above. Rather than try to avoid that, and thereby insult the court’s intelligence, it’s often better to take the bull by the horns and acknowledge that you’re asking the court to depart from the guidance issued to it.

You will then have to argue your reasons as to why the court should do as you ask. From what you have said, that seems to be that you will lose your job if you lose your licence (note the spelling) and have to re-take your test. However, you have to be careful not to take it too far, because presumably if the court just outright bans you from driving then you might lose your job anyway.
Thanks for your advice, very helpful. Obviously,  I don't want to make the situation worse. I have also noted the spelling of licence  ;D