3. Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
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Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
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I received a NIP with a typo on the road name and a date of 10/11/23 at 06:00. This wasn't me at all so I replied back saying I wasn't the driver and attached evidence of my Google Timeline History and a request for ANPR cameras to be checked as I didn't have the authority to do this. My vehicle didn't leave my address.
I also emailed a copy of my supporting letter across to the camera enforcement team and no response was received.

I received a SJP bundle saying I had two offences. One being the original offence of speeding and another being failure to respond. In the bundle, the paperwork evidence shows a timestamp of another date  and time (17/11/23 at 2:30) with a PC statement saying the car was caught with a camera but the officer was assisting elsewhere and unable to stop the vehicle.

I've been summoned to court after responding not guilty and declaring that the NIP and SJP bundle are two separate dates - neither of which are me.

Could someone assist me in how to conduct myself in court? My car was parked at my daughters address as she is the primary user of the vehicle and I've asked her to be a witness.

As the officer didn't stop the vehicle there isn't any evidence of who the real driver was. Police suggested calling 101 to report a false plate which I tried but they were unable to because there isn't a way to check the cameras that far back.  I am wondering whether other actions need to be taken.

I was hoping to point out the errors to the Magistrates Court however not sure how to go about proving I did actually respond back to the NIP besides my email.

Thanks so much for your help

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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #1 on: »
So the incorrect road name is now irrelevant it would seem (and probably never would have helped anyway if the road it referred to was 'obvious').

The S172 request didn't ask if it was you, it asks you who was driving and that is what you needed to tell them.

If all you said was that it wasn't you driving you appear to have committed the offence of failing to furnish driver's details. You have to either ID the driver or (summarising) give them information that would help identify the driver (even if that is 'it wasn't my car, my car was on the drive under my control at the time' as an example).

Perhaps tell us what you meant/should have said and see if we can help you dig yourself out of the hole you are now in.

Could it have been your car there? (the road name you seem to think it was) at any time.?
If so who could have been driving?
Or do you think they misidentified the car?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2024, 04:12:35 pm by The Rookie »
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: moonshine23 on July 25, 2024, 03:30:02 pm
I received a SJP bundle saying I had two offences. One being the original offence of speeding and another being failure to respond. In the bundle, the paperwork evidence shows a timestamp of another date  and time (17/11/23 at 2:30) with a PC statement saying the car was caught with a camera but the officer was assisting elsewhere and unable to stop the vehicle.

I've been summoned to court after responding not guilty and declaring that the NIP and SJP bundle are two separate dates - neither of which are me.

There is no offence of "failing to respond", and you have told us categorically that you did respond.
Neither the NIP nor the SJPN are dates, let alone separate dates. The NIP will have an issue date and an offence date. The SJPN bundle will consist of numerous relevant documents with numerous potentially relevant dates.

If you want people to give up their free time to try to help you with your problem, I would strongly suggest providing all the relevant information, ideally in date order.

What exactly did you say in your s. 172 response?
What do the witness statements say about documents being sent and received?
Is there a copy of the NIP in the bundle?

Was the car parked at your address or your daughter's, at the time and the specified in the NIP and at the "new" time and date?
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #3 on: »
Sorry i will try and be more clear. In response to the questions:
What exactly did you say in your s. 172 response?

I said that the car was parked on the driveway at the offence time and how my daughter left the house that day only to attend a doctors apt in the afternoon which is the only recording available on the camera. I asked the camera enforcement team to check ANPR footage from the time of the incident to see that my car was no where near that area at that time. I mentioned that my daughter is the user of the car and has confirmed she didn't drive or be in that area where the offence took place.

What do the witness statements say about documents being sent and received?
Witness statement from the admin says no response received despite me sending one and emailing also. The PC statement says that the vehicle was caught with TruCam and not stopped as he was busy with another vehicle.

Is there a copy of the NIP in the bundle?

Yes there is, the date on the NIP offence and the date on the timestamp evidence are different.

Was the car parked at your address or your daughter's, at the time and the specified in the NIP and at the "new" time and date?

Both times parked at daughters as she is the main user. I am only the registered keeper as I bought the car for her.
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: The Rookie on July 25, 2024, 03:42:24 pm
So the incorrect road name is now irrelevant it would seem (and probably never would have helped anyway if the road it referred to was 'obvious').

The S172 request didn't ask if it was you, it asks you who was driving and that is what you needed to tell them.

If all you said was that it wasn't you driving you appear to have committed the offence of failing to furnish driver's details. You have to either ID the driver or (summarising) give them information that would help identify the driver (even if that is 'it wasn't my car, my car was on the drive under my control at the time' as an example).

Perhaps tell us what you meant/should have said and see if we can help you dig yourself out of the hole you are now in.

Could it have been your car there? (the road name you seem to think it was) at any time.?
If so who could have been driving?
Or do you think they misidentified the car?

I did explain in my response that I couldn't identify the driver as my car was on the driveway of my daughters house at the time of the alleged offence and she hadn't drove. I thought it must be a clerical error until the SJP paperwork received months later showed the reg on a vehicle. I am still unable to identify the driver as I have no idea who it is
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #5 on: »
Did you give them your daughter's details?
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #6 on: »
So, just to be clear, as well as getting the time and date wrong in the NIP (and incorporated s. 172 requirement), the vehicle was parked up and not being driven at the revised time - meaning that either it was a different car (misread or cloned plate) or they got the time/date wrong twice?

Are there any photos of the offence included in the bundle?
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #7 on: »
Your daughter was effectively the keeper.  You should have nominated her.

I hope you are not suggesting you've been 'fronting' = your account looks dangerously like that might be what has been occurring.  You don't seem to have any reason for being the registered keeper at all?

Your email response is potentially your get out here - you cannot be found guilty of the speeding offence as no driver nomination was made (apparently); so it falls to the Failure to Provide charge, and what you wrote in the email is going to be of key importance and whether you can prove it was delivered (the same applies to your written response, but it appears that was not received).
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #8 on: »
I was once prosecuted for an alleged s. 172 offence, where the police did not like my response. The witness statement stated that no response had been received as the tubby had clicked the wrong box (the other box was "no acceptable response has been received"). Beyond that, when cross examined, the tubby then lost the ability to understand any awkward questions in English, but that's by the by.

If the required/relevant information has been provided by email, and received/responded to by a relevant person then I would suggest that that would satisfy the substance of the requirement. Where the s. 172 response constitutes a confession to being the driver, it needs to be in writing and signed by the accused to be admissible - and in such cases failure to respond in writing or sign the response has been held by the Divisional Court to constitute a failure to comply with a lawfully made reasonable [necessary] requirement as to the manner.
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: andy_foster on July 25, 2024, 05:32:44 pm
So, just to be clear, as well as getting the time and date wrong in the NIP (and incorporated s. 172 requirement), the vehicle was parked up and not being driven at the revised time - meaning that either it was a different car (misread or cloned plate) or they got the time/date wrong twice?

Are there any photos of the offence included in the bundle?

Yes the bundle has a timestamped picture of the reg. The vehicle was parked up at this time.
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Irksome on July 25, 2024, 05:35:49 pm
Your daughter was effectively the keeper.  You should have nominated her.

I hope you are not suggesting you've been 'fronting' = your account looks dangerously like that might be what has been occurring.  You don't seem to have any reason for being the registered keeper at all?

Your email response is potentially your get out here - you cannot be found guilty of the speeding offence as no driver nomination was made (apparently); so it falls to the Failure to Provide charge, and what you wrote in the email is going to be of key importance and whether you can prove it was delivered (the same applies to your written response, but it appears that was not received).

This was the word for word response I sent as the body of the email:

Hi,

Attaching a copy of my letter disputing my vehicle was at the location on the date of offence per my notice letter.

I've included a printed copy sent in the post however wanted to include a digital copy of the letter for the image quality.

My subject line was my reg and CTO Ref from the NIP.

Also no - please don't assume "fronting". My daughter has insurance with herself as the first driver and her own address. I am only the keeper because I bought the car as a grad. present and the finance term has only just ended. On her insurance paperwork the registered keeper is myself - I'm sure this is allowed?


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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #11 on: »
So the 'letter' seems relevant, can you share the contents?
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: The Rookie on July 26, 2024, 10:02:03 am
So the 'letter' seems relevant, can you share the contents?

Here is the letter I've erased the sensitive info. I understand that the Google Timeline isn't much proof but it's all she had and isn't it better to show something rather than nothing? It's a picture:
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #13 on: »
RE

Dear Central Ticket Office Team,

I have received a speeding offence which I am disputing, details below:

CTO Reference: Registration:

Make

The notice states the vehicle was driven in XXX at XX

I am disputing this as the vehicle XXX was most definitely not in this area, let alone being driven at this time.

The vehicle was infact parked at XXX at the time of the alleged offence. This address is the home of my daughter the main driver of this vehicle.

The vehicle was driven the first time on this date when my daughter left the
house in the afternoon to attend her 8 week postnatal check at the GP at 13:48. am including a screenshot of the following as evidence:

My daughters Google Maps Location Timeline history on history. The first journey is recorded as leaving her house at 13:48 showing her travel

- A screenshot from the video Eufy doorbell. This doorbell only captures and records moments where movement is detected rather than continuous recording. The first recording on XXX shows her leaving the property to enter the vehicle in the afternoon. The vehicle is parked the driveway. There are no recordings earlier than 01:34PM as movement was detected.

-Photo of front and rear as the car was at the time of the alleged offence (parked on driveway)

I am not certain whether there are any continous recording Council CCTV cameras at my daughter's location with a view of her driveway. I would request Police to investigate this as I do not have the right to access private footage due to GDPR regulations. If so, please view footage from the alleged offence to prove the vehicle was parked on the driveway. I also urge the team to check ANPR recordings from which will prove my vehicle was not driven in that area at that time.

I have provided an explanation and all the evidence available to me. Please provide written acknowledgement of my dispute and what actions have been taken.

Yours sincerely,
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Re: Incorrect road name on NIP and different date on SJP - Summons to court
« Reply #14 on: »
Have you responded - in the manner in which you are requested to - to the SJPN.

Whilst you are corresponding with the CTO the SJ process continues. Unless you actually deal with it as required you will eventually just get convicted in your absence. You .it struggle to get the case reopened since you are aware of it.
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