Author Topic: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !  (Read 874 times)

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littlebee

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Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« on: June 27, 2024, 10:27:18 am »
Hello everyone :-).

I hired a vehicle and used it for a long trip but sadly received a 'Notice of Intended Prosecution'' for the alleged offence of ''Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device'', speed was allegedly 46mph and the speed limit was reduced to 40mph, this was on the M1 motorway where the national speed limit is 70mph.

The variable speed limit changed throughout the journey, from the national speed limit of 70 and all the variations in between.

The reduction in speed appeared to be due to road works on the motorway, it was around 04:00am when the traffic volume was low.

The speed adjustments were prevalent through out the journey and part of me believes I was within the speed limit - not sure how accurate the speeding cameras were and if the speed limits readjusted just before I passed through a camera, for which they have penalised me, but I cant be sure.

I received the notice of intended prosecution, 1 month after the offence date (around 28 days between them) - I'm guessing the Police must have contacted the hire company to get my details.

And to add to the problems, I've just received a fine from the hire company for getting a ''speeding ticket''' !

I just wanted to see what you guys thought and if anyone has been in a similar situation ? I do not believe I was speeding, it was the motorway and I was in a hire vehicle, little annoyed and not sure what, if anything, I could do to challenge this.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks all

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666

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2024, 10:56:23 am »
You cannot "challenge" a NIP.

You must name yourself as the driver (if you have not done so already), and you will then be offered a fixed penalty and possibly a speed awareness course. The only way to challenge the allegation is to refuse those offers, and you will eventually find yourself in court. Unless you have a viable defence, which you have not mentioned, you will be found guilty, at considerable cost.

littlebee

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2024, 11:06:04 am »
You cannot "challenge" a NIP.

You must name yourself as the driver (if you have not done so already), and you will then be offered a fixed penalty and possibly a speed awareness course. The only way to challenge the allegation is to refuse those offers, and you will eventually find yourself in court. Unless you have a viable defence, which you have not mentioned, you will be found guilty, at considerable cost.

Thanks for your response, appreciated.

As these were variable speed cameras on the motorway and speed limit changed a few times, can I not question the credibility of the speed cameras (for example are they accurate) ? and with the constant speed changes it created an environment of confusion, for example for one phase of the journey, the limit was 70, reduced to 50, then 40 and then up again to 60 within a 10 mile range - my point is there were constant changes to speed limits. And Im guessing on that particular day many others may have faced similar frustration and could have also received a NIP. Hope that makes sense.

FuzzyDuck

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2024, 11:47:22 am »
This is a normal part of driving the UK motorway system nowadays, complaining about it won't get you off. Likewise just saying you tink the recorded speed is wrong won't work, you have to prove it was wrong.


The Rookie

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2024, 12:00:36 pm »
I've just received a fine from the hire company for getting a ''speeding ticket''' !
I presume you mean an admin charge from them, for the admin of replying to the NIP (well S172 request on the same piece of paper) with your details?
Perfectly normal.

As these were variable speed cameras on the motorway and speed limit changed a few times, can I not question the credibility of the speed cameras (for example are they accurate) ?
Question the 'credibility' no, of course you are free to question the accuracy by declining any out of court resolution offered (course or fixed penalty) and then defending it court.  But if you fail to cast 'reasonable doubt' (and odds on you will fail) it will cost you about 1000 for exercising that right versus circa 100 for the out of court resolutions you are certain to be offered.  Unless you can identify specific issues you may be able to use in a defence, it's foolish to just 'hope' you can find something.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 12:53:22 pm by The Rookie »
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

littlebee

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2024, 02:38:16 pm »
I've just received a fine from the hire company for getting a ''speeding ticket''' !
I presume you mean an admin charge from them, for the admin of replying to the NIP (well S172 request on the same piece of paper) with your details?
Perfectly normal.

As these were variable speed cameras on the motorway and speed limit changed a few times, can I not question the credibility of the speed cameras (for example are they accurate) ?
Question the 'credibility' no, of course you are free to question the accuracy by declining any out of court resolution offered (course or fixed penalty) and then defending it court.  But if you fail to cast 'reasonable doubt' (and odds on you will fail) it will cost you about 1000 for exercising that right versus circa 100 for the out of court resolutions you are certain to be offered.  Unless you can identify specific issues you may be able to use in a defence, it's foolish to just 'hope' you can find something.


Yes, admin charge

OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?

If the cameras say were not perfectly aligned they could give a mis-reading ?
and question whether the speed restrictions were correctly applied between the different areas where they had restrictions in place - the speed restrictions seemed to be very inconsistent across the stretch of the motorway, on the narrower temporary lanes whilst motorway road works were taking place.


littlebee

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2024, 02:41:34 pm »
This is a normal part of driving the UK motorway system nowadays, complaining about it won't get you off. Likewise just saying you tink the recorded speed is wrong won't work, you have to prove it was wrong.

but its their equipment, speed cameras that could be at fault ? Reading mis-match ? Surely they would need to validate all their equipment was correctly configured and the speed restrictions they had applied, which were inconsistent across the stretch of the motorway, were correctly used ? The motorway lanes were made narrower, there were road works going on mixed in with the constant speed changes - made it unsafe for any driver.


The Rookie

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2024, 02:47:35 pm »
OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?

If the cameras say were not perfectly aligned they could give a mis-reading ?
No they don't have to prove anything at all before going to court, the point of the out of court settlements is to allow those who accept their guilt to receive some benefit in terms of a lesser punishment, they only have to prove anything if you take it to court but then you will pay for the pleasure if found (0r then plead) guilty.

The cameras take a photo, if they are misaligned they wouldn't have your reg number - if the speed detecting radar were misaligned there wouldn't be a speed reading!
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

littlebee

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2024, 02:50:49 pm »
OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?

If the cameras say were not perfectly aligned they could give a mis-reading ?
No they don't have to prove anything at all before going to court, the point of the out of court settlements is to allow those who accept their guilt to receive some benefit in terms of a lesser punishment, they only have to prove anything if you take it to court but then you will pay for the pleasure if found (0r then plead) guilty.

The cameras take a photo, if they are misaligned they wouldn't have your reg number - if the speed detecting radar were misaligned there wouldn't be a speed reading!


Of course if the cameras were misaligned they could over or under read the actual speed, so could be invalid in both circumstances.

Appreciate you taking time to respond, thanks.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 03:02:24 pm by littlebee »

666

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2024, 03:16:37 pm »


OK - so they don't have to prove that the cameras they used were accurate/valid and that the speed restriction wasn't an anomaly on their part, before going to court ? Are these not reasonable questions to raise, before going to court?

There is no forum or mechanism for raising questions "before going to court".

The out-of-court settlements are offered specifically to save both the police and the accused party the trouble and expense of a court hearing in uncontested cases. You can raise the questions, but the police aren't going to engage with you.

At court, the onus will be on you to prove that the camera was not operating correctly (not "might have been"). How do you intend to do that?

Logician

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2024, 06:44:44 pm »
The newer speed cameras, which I think are used on the M1, take a picture of the displayed limit as well as the car in question. You can try asking for those. You will get nowhere with speculative defences such as "the limit may not have been correctly displayed" or "the camera may not have been properly aligned" a machine is presumed to be working correctly unless you can prove that it was not.

littlebee

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2024, 04:19:34 pm »
I managed to access the photo evidence.

On there it states, ''time since speed limit change'' ''1hour 27mins and 22 seconds''

So, I read that as, the speed limit did not change for over 1 hour and 27mins ?

That is just not correct, the speed limits constantly changed ! Is there a way I can request or obtain the speed limits on that day for that section of the motorway ?

Thanks

tonys

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2024, 04:27:23 pm »
That is just not correct, the speed limits constantly changed !
How can you know that? What they mean is the limit at that particular place had been in place for that time. You're probably referring to driving through different limits in different places.

666

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2024, 05:00:08 pm »
I managed to access the photo evidence.

On there it states, ''time since speed limit change'' ''1hour 27mins and 22 seconds''

So, I read that as, the speed limit did not change for over 1 hour and 27mins ?

That is just not correct, the speed limits constantly changed ! Is there a way I can request or obtain the speed limits on that day for that section of the motorway ?

Thanks

The only limit that matters is the one you're alleged to have exceeded: what happened on the rest of your journey is irrelevant.

Did you see the limit on that particular gantry change? Presumably not, or you would have complied.

BTW when a limit does reduce, you will not be prosecuted for immediately speeding past the sign. The system has a built-in delay before the cameras are activated for the new limit.

littlebee

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Re: Hire vehicle - Variable speed limit on motorway - Help !
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2024, 05:05:26 pm »
I managed to access the photo evidence.

On there it states, ''time since speed limit change'' ''1hour 27mins and 22 seconds''

So, I read that as, the speed limit did not change for over 1 hour and 27mins ?

That is just not correct, the speed limits constantly changed ! Is there a way I can request or obtain the speed limits on that day for that section of the motorway ?

Thanks

The only limit that matters is the one you're alleged to have exceeded: what happened on the rest of your journey is irrelevant.

Did you see the limit on that particular gantry change? Presumably not, or you would have complied.

BTW when a limit does reduce, you will not be prosecuted for immediately speeding past the sign. The system has a built-in delay before the cameras are activated for the new limit.

The speed limit changed on a regular basis.

They are saying it did not change for well over an hour, that is simply not true !

The speed limit on the motorway continued to change through out the journey and absolutely did change more than a few times in an hour.

They have made a mistake. How do I prove they made the mistake ? Is the speed limit information something I can formally request ?