Author Topic: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police  (Read 262 times)

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Niche

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NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« on: May 03, 2024, 12:57:08 pm »
Iíve got a NIP
Please help!!!

Difficult as that place is on a hill and Iím on the borderline of speed limit rule to prosecute
Iím 35 on 30 but the road changes to 40 not long before I have to slow down

Donít recall who was driving - canít see in photograph either, have been victim of scam before so if thatís a ringer I donít know.

Iíve noticed no signature on document printed or signed

Obviously want to resolve successfully

Any procedural issues I can use to dispute

I am the registered keeper but the incident is not of my recollection photos donít help to identify
Other driver is at work proof available

Ringer issue plausible if Previous victim of crime /scam?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 01:14:34 pm by Niche »

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Niche

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Re: Elstree NIP
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2024, 01:06:55 pm »
Some documents

Niche

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Re: Elstree NIP
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2024, 01:07:43 pm »
Thatís a pic on the road

666

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Re: Elstree NIP
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2024, 01:11:35 pm »
Any particular question(s)?

The Rookie

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2024, 01:32:58 pm »
You say it may be a clone, but realistically if you live in the area and the car was  probably on that road that day then itís more than likely your car Iíd suggest.

The onus is on you to determine who was driving and to excercise reasonable diligence in finding out, otherwise youíll turn what would be a speed awareness course for the driver into 6 points for yourself.  Itís not impossible to use the Ďreasonable diligenceí defence but not easy (or everyone would do it).
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

NewJudge

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2024, 02:09:38 pm »
Quote
Difficult as that place is on a hill and Iím on the borderline of speed limit rule to prosecute
Iím 35 on 30...

35 is not "on the borderline". It's the lowest speed at which enforcement action is taken
 
Quote
....so if thatís a ringer I donít know.

Does that look like your vehicle? Is it somewhere it might have been at the relevant time? It was only just over a week ago.

Quote
Obviously want to resolve successfully

By "successfully" do you mean without you or anyone else receiving any penalty?

Quote
I am the registered keeper but the incident is not of my recollection photos donít help to identify
Other driver is at work proof available

Proof of what? You're not being asked to prove where anybody was. You're being asked to provide the details of the person who was driving that vehicle at that time and location. You need to decide firstly whether the photographs actually show your vehicle and if they do, you need to set about establishing who was driving it. As above, if you can't you will have to convince a court that you could not. What steps have you taken so far to find out who was driving? If you simply turn up in court saying the incident is not of your recollection you will face conviction and six points.

Niche

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2024, 04:29:12 pm »
I am wondering if the NIP stands if there is no signature printed or signed?
I will provide keepers details but itís difficult to recollect when this happened.
Second named driver was at work in Finchley at that time.

Can the speeding fine be challenged with the speed being at the lower limit? What are the successful appeals that can be made for this low limit prosecution?

Any procedural issues to raise for them to drop it or known issues with the area ie camera sensitivity or poorly displayed signage?

Many thanks

666

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2024, 05:10:24 pm »
I am wondering if the NIP stands if there is no signature printed or signed?
I will provide keepers details but itís difficult to recollect when this happened.
Second named driver was at work in Finchley at that time.

Can the speeding fine be challenged with the speed being at the lower limit? What are the successful appeals that can be made for this low limit prosecution?

Any procedural issues to raise for them to drop it or known issues with the area ie camera sensitivity or poorly displayed signage?

Many thanks
Someone more qualified can comment on the signature, though I'm sure if it was an issue New Judge would have picked it up.

As for the 'lower limit', it's there precisely to remove any doubt: it's 10% over the limit, plus 2 mph.

The only way you can 'challenge' it is to ignore any offers from the police and to go to court. Since you haven't (so far) mentioned any possible defence, that would be a foolish decision, potentially costing you ten times as much.

ManxTom

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2024, 05:19:40 pm »


... Can the speeding fine be challenged with the speed being at the lower limit? What are the successful appeals that can be made for this low limit prosecution?...

What makes you think you could challenge being prosecuted at 35mph?

The speed limit is 30mph.  Enforcement starts at 35mph so they've already given you  over 4mph for free.

slapdash

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2024, 05:55:04 pm »
Even if you do decide to challenge by eventually pleading not guilty you still need to name the driver or you commit a more serious offence than the driver did.

ManxTom

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2024, 06:31:15 pm »

... I will provide keepers details but itís difficult to recollect when this happened.
Second named driver was at work in Finchley at that time...

What do you mean by you "will provide keepers details"?  You need to identify the driver

You've said you are the Registered Keeper.  Are you saying that someone else had possession of the car at the time of the alleged offence, but that you don't know if they or some other person was drivving?

NewJudge

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2024, 06:45:01 pm »
Quote
I will provide keepers details but itís difficult to recollect when this happened.

As well as being the Registered Keeper, were you "the person keeping the vehicle" at the time? If so, you have a duty to provide the driver's details. If not you must provide any information that you have which will help identify the driver. So which is it? Either way you must comply with that request. You know when it happened as you've been given the details,

Quote
Second named driver was at work in Finchley at that time.

That would seem to make your task of identifying the driver somewhat easier.

Quote
Can the speeding fine be challenged with the speed being at the lower limit? What are the successful appeals that can be made for this low limit prosecution?

What lower limit? The limit is 30mph. The car was detected allegedly doing 35mph. 35 is more than 30. if the driver (whoever that was) wants to defend the charge on the basis that he or she was not speeding the court will have to be convinced that the car was travelling at no more than 30mph. However, unless you identify the driver the speeding issue is irrelevant. The police currently do not know who was driving so they cannot take action against anybody for that offence until you tell them.

I see no mileage in the lack of signature either on the NIP or the request for driver's details.

You seem to be intent on converting what will be the offer of a course for the driver into a far more serious outcome for you. If you fail to identify the driver you will face a charge which, if you are convicted, will see a hefty fine, six points and insurance grief for the following five years. So again, what efforts have you made to establish who was driving?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 06:49:31 pm by NewJudge »

andy_foster

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Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2024, 07:39:21 pm »
There is no requirement for a NIP to be signed.

For an s. 172 requirement to be lawful, it must be issued by or on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police. It is perhaps arguable that the authority must be indicated on the notice so that the recipient can know that it is lawful. In Arnold v DPP it was argued by Mr Arnold that the s. 172 notice was defective as it did not contain a wet ink signature, but merely a printed or described signature. The Divisional Court held that a described signature was fine as anything that is intended to be taken as a signature constitutes a signature. It is possible to infer from the judgment that a signature of some description is required, although I would suggest that you would require a particularly sympathetic bench to accept such an inference.
At the risk of appearing arrogant, I would be amazed if anyone had any further advice regarding the notice being unsigned, and I have shard as much as I understand. If you want to look into this, search BAILII for "Arnold v DPP" and have a read.

As others have indicated, there appears to be much that you don't recall from an incident a week before. Other than the unsigned notice, for any of it to form a defence, you would need to prove the relevant point on the balance of probabilities. Whether or not you are sure that it is all above board is in itself utterly irrelevant.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.