Author Topic: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area  (Read 420 times)

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Dconnerie

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Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« on: July 06, 2024, 10:48:49 am »
Hi guys,

Iíve received a SJP for the following

- stop vehicle in pelican crossing controlled area
- fail to give information relating to ID of driver

Essentially the area in question (as shown on photos), is a cut-out parking layby, full every day of the week, with no hatching or anything like that.  This was the first time in years that Iíd parked there, and I guess I got unlucky on this particular occasion.

I didnít know (as clearly do none of the other drivers everyday) that despite this being a parking area, half of it is actually illegal because of the road markings), but I know ignorance is no defence.

On the failing to provide information, I received the letter from the police which gave the offence with no explanation or evidence, or even an offence code, so I had no idea what I was meant to have done.  I wrote back within the week, filling the form and, as directed, using a second sheet with further explanation.  I explained that at the alleged time of the offence, I was parked in a parking area, with other drivers, and that at the specific time I wasnít driving the car, and was actually in a meeting with 2 colleagues.  I sent this using a first class stamp, to the address given.  Unfortunately, and I guess this may be my problem, I didnít post with proof of posting.

The only other thing to mention is that the date of the first offence is listed as Jan 2024, with the date of the second offence listed as March 2023.  Clearly a typo, but in that case I donít know what to do.

Obviously had I had confirmation from the police of the alleged offence, with evidence, I could have challenged at the time, or agreed and taken the fine.

So, my questions are

1) despite the area being a parking lay-by, have I committed an offence? (I will take this up with the council after to ask they look at the problem)

2) I guess then I plead guilty to the first offence? 

3) How should I pleased to the second offence, based on the above (sending the information back, and the incorrect dates)?

4) Should I ask to go to court?

5) The criminal record really scares me - Iíve never had anything like this before - but I think Iím right in saying that if I am found guilty, the offence wouldnít show on searches? An added complication is that I have a global entry status with the US, does anyone know if Iíd have to declare this, or if itís searchable by them?

6) If guilty, what am I looking at, punishment wise?

Photo: https://ibb.co/x2Rk6Qf

Thank you so much in advance
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 10:51:54 am by Dconnerie »

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AntonyMMM

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2024, 11:57:48 am »
Please clarify .... was the SJP the first you heard of the offence, or was there an earlier notice ( and s172 request to name the driver) that you failed to respond to ?

And if you did receive an earlier request did you actually reply naming the driver ?

Dconnerie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2024, 12:01:26 pm »
I did explain this in the original post - I got a letter and a form asking me to reply to confirm driver, which I did send back

666

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2024, 12:39:46 pm »
I did explain this in the original post - I got a letter and a form asking me to reply to confirm driver, which I did send back
That "letter" would have been a Notice of Intended Prosecution, which has to state the offence in question, i.e. "stop vehicle in pelican crossing controlled area". But you say "I had no idea what I was meant to have done". Is that right?

Anyway, it seems the police did not receive your reply, so now you are facing two charges. To answer your questions:

1. It seems so.
2. NO. On no account plead G to that, at the moment they have no evidence that you were the driver, and you may end up with 9 points in total.
3. The normal advice is to plead NOT guilty to both, with the proviso (in the Mitigation section) that you would be willing to plead guilty to the Pelican charge if the failure to ID is dropped.
4. No. It is possible that the court may accept your offer. If not, you will then be summonsed to a hearing, where you can make the same offer to the prosecutor and it will almost certainly be accepted.
5. You will not have a criminal record. I don't know exactly what questions the US asks, but I doubt whether they'll care about minor motoring offences.
6.  You can explain to the court that you did reply to the NIP, but it must have been lost in the post, and ask (politely) to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level (£100 plus 3 points). They may agree, otherwise it's an income-related fine, plus surcharge and c£60 costs, and the same 3 points.

Dconnerie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2024, 12:52:51 pm »
Thanks, and sorry, I see what you mean.  The letter I got in the mail originally was a NIP.  It did say Ďstop vehicle in pelican crossingí but I didnít know what that meant, and there was no information (as I wasnít driving the car - it was in a parking space - I thought maybe a fixed camera was pointing the wrong way).

So to summarise what youíve said,

- plead not guilty to both, - suggesting that im willing to accept the first charge if the second is dropped
- request that the penalty be looked at in line with the original NIP on the basis I did respond and they didnít receive it

Is that right? And what do I say when they ask if I was the driver (as you mentioned they canít prove it was me)?

I canít tell you how much I appreciate the help, thank you

Gilan02

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2024, 01:07:50 pm »
Did you identify the driver?

Dconnerie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2024, 01:10:51 pm »
I did reply to the NIP saying I owned the car but wasnít in it (it was parked) but they say they didnít receive that

NewJudge

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2024, 01:14:56 pm »
Quote
And what do I say when they ask if I was the driver (as you mentioned they canít prove it was me)?

They will have no need to ask you. By pleading guilty to the underlying offence (parking in the pelican area) there is no need for them to provide any evidence to the court.

You may need to attend court to do this "plea deal". Before the pandemic it was invariably necessary to go to court to do it as it requires the agreement of the prosecutor. During the pandemic courts were keen to see as few people attending in person as possible so they made arrangements for it to be done by post or e-mail. Many courts have continued with this process but in some areas the courts have reverted to the earlier process which requires attendance.

andy_foster

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2024, 01:16:40 pm »
Presumably there is a witness statement from the CTO concerning the service of notices. What exactly does it say regarding the s. 172 response?
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Dconnerie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2024, 01:22:36 pm »
Quote
And what do I say when they ask if I was the driver (as you mentioned they canít prove it was me)?

They will have no need to ask you. By pleading guilty to the underlying offence (parking in the pelican area) there is no need for them to provide any evidence to the court.

You may need to attend court to do this "plea deal". Before the pandemic it was invariably necessary to go to court to do it as it requires the agreement of the prosecutor. During the pandemic courts were keen to see as few people attending in person as possible so they made arrangements for it to be done by post or e-mail. Many courts have continued with this process but in some areas the courts have reverted to the earlier process which requires attendance.

I might have misunderstood but someone above said to plead not guilty to both?

Dconnerie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2024, 01:25:31 pm »
Presumably there is a witness statement from the CTO concerning the service of notices. What exactly does it say regarding the s. 172 response?

It says ďreminder letters are no longer being sent out.  To date no response has been received in the West Midlands police central ticket officeĒ.

Is the fact that the date of the alleged 2nd offence is a year out an issue here? (It says 2023 instead of 2024)

NewJudge

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2024, 05:02:22 pm »
I might have misunderstood but someone above said to plead not guilty to both?

Yes, you plead Not Guilty to both and then you offer to plead guilty to the pelican offence on the understanding that the Fail to Provide Driver's Details charge is dropped.

Without your guilty plea they cannot succeed with the pelican offence because they have no evidence that you were the driver. That would come from your response which did not arrive.

As an aside, in some respects I believe it is to your advantage that it did not arrive because it did not provide the driver's details. They may have given you the chance to reconsider when you explained that you were not actually driving but were responsible for leaving the vehicle where it was. But that is an aside that you need not worry about.

The Rookie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2024, 09:52:31 am »
I did reply to the NIP saying I owned the car but wasnít in it (it was parked) but they say they didnít receive that
But did it say you were the driver at the relevant time (when the car was parked).  If it didn't the Police will say that no acceptable response was received, as it wasn't!
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

Dconnerie

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Re: Advice on SJP relating to pelican area
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2024, 01:16:05 pm »
I might have misunderstood but someone above said to plead not guilty to both?

Yes, you plead Not Guilty to both and then you offer to plead guilty to the pelican offence on the understanding that the Fail to Provide Driver's Details charge is dropped.

Without your guilty plea they cannot succeed with the pelican offence because they have no evidence that you were the driver. That would come from your response which did not arrive.

As an aside, in some respects I believe it is to your advantage that it did not arrive because it did not provide the driver's details. They may have given you the chance to reconsider when you explained that you were not actually driving but were responsible for leaving the vehicle where it was. But that is an aside that you need not worry about.

Thanks to everyone for your advice so far.  Honestly, it's helped to calm me down at least.  So just before I go online to enter my plea, I wanted to run past what I was going to do / say, hopefully having understood what you've all said.  Please do let me know if any of this is the wrong approach, or inappropriate. 

So firstly, I'm going to plead not guilty to both charges. 

In the mitigation section I was going to write "I would be willing to plead guilty to the Pelican charge if the failure to ID charge is dropped.  This would be on account of the fact that I did return the information requested of me in advance of the 30-day deadline, but it seems as though this was lost in the mail.  Because of this, I would also politely and respectfully request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level."