Author Topic: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?  (Read 402 times)

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Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
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Hi I hope someone is happy and able to advise

I have received a Notice of Intended Prosecution from Met Police (NIP)  Regarding alleged speeding offence 24MPH in 20MPH zone. Online they have included two photos of my car, at two different points on the camera speeding lines but (as far as I can tell) )nothing on the photos indicates my speed? Shouldn't there be a speed timer? The traffic alongside is static cars are ahead of me and behind.. I'm puzzled, are these two photos enough to prove/accuse me of speeding? Or do the CPS produce more evidence at some point?
Have attached photos .. am I missing a crucial detail?

https://ibb.co/GvJkYBD6
https://ibb.co/rKkVJjXh
https://ibb.co/wFCJH2qm
They have also included this Calibration cert ..  I thought might help but leaves me none the wiser. It appears to be 'proof' that the camera was calibrated? As the road was only recently changed from 30 to 20 mph I am pretty sure they will have checked (calibrated)the cameras then but does this Calibration Cert prove that? 

I'm required to send the NIP back... have just filled it in but before returning wanted to ask about the photos because I'm still not convinced that I was speeding.

I'm interested to find out how the process works, primarily How these photos alone prove that I was speeding? Also be good to understand what happens next? I have looked online and it seems likely the option is either a speed awareness course (if eligible) and fine OR points and a fine.. no idea how much the fines or how they will decide or let me know?


Thanks for any useful advice or experience you can share

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Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #1 on: »
Buckle up, you're about to learn something that will blow your mind, and dispel a very common misconception. Or you mind might not be blown, and you might be utterly underwhelmed. However you indicated to desire to learn and understand, so that's a good start.

Most people think that "begging the question" means exposing another more immediate question (or somesuch). What it actually means is relying on an undetermined or false premise as if it were beyond dispute in order to support an equally flawed ultimate premise.

The photos, *as disclosed*, prove approximately two thirds of f*ck all. For reasons we are not privy to, the SCP have taken it upon themselves to crop the data blocks from the photos before sending the remainder to you. The data blocks will contain the record of the approved device, which absent any evidence to the contrary, will be sufficient to prove the speed. Typically the primary speed reading is generated from a doppler radar system, and the second photo taken a known  to the SCP and anyone who has the full evidential photos will be to enable the reading to be corroborated based on your average speed by dividing the distance travelled between the photos (they will also know the distance between the dragon's teeth) by the time interval.

You are not entitled to see any of the evidence against you unless and until to reject any and all out of court disposals, and they instigate court proceedings against you. Some forces don't even send photos at this stage as a matter of course, or at all.

You might think that this is unfair, particularly as they have sent you what are essentially the evidential photos with [most of] the evidential bits removed. We are here to advise you regarding the law, not to listen to posters vent about things that we have no control over.

The prosecution do not need to prove to you that you were speeding, they merely need to be able to prove to the satisfaction of the court that you were. If it gets that far, you will get to see the same evidence that the court does, but the relatively inexpensive disposals will be long gone by then.

For 24 in a 20, you should expect to be offered a speed awareness course (which costs about the same as a fixed penalty) if you have not taken such a course for an offence committed within the 3 years prior to this one. And/or you should expect to be offered a fixed penalty (3 points and £100 penalty). The police are quite keen on offering courses, as they get a £35 commission for introducing the customer, and the customers mostly manage to bite their tongues as their primary concern is avoiding the points.

If you ignore/decline the out of court disposal offers, and plead guilty upon receiving the SJPN bundle (usually containing the evidence they would be seeking to rely on), you would expect the same 3 points, a fine based on the magistrates' sentencing guidelines (with 1/3 discount for an early guilty plea) (link in the "READ THIS FIRST" sticky at the top of the speeding forum), a 40% surcharge on that fine and ~£95 prosecution costs.
If it went to trial, and you lost, you would lose the 1/3 discount off the fine and surcharge, and face prosecution costs of ~£650.
Obviously, if you went to trial and won, there would be no fine, no points, no surcharge and no prosecution costs (and you could probably claim your bus fare).

N.B. The above is all based on the assumption that you name yourself as the driver. Failure to do so is a separate and more serious/expensive offence.

Perhaps the most relevant attachment was the calibration certificate - not because being out of date would have helped (it wouldn't), but it shows that it was a RedSpeed camera, not a Gatso - off the top of my head the Gatso BV 24 +AUS is the only approved speed camera whose approval excludes use in limits below 30mph. However, the pattern of the dragon's teeth is wrong for a gatso (or at least highly unusual).
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #2 on: »
The system stated is Speedcurb, not Redspeed. Don't know if there is difference.

The dragons teeth do seam a bit strange for the speedcurb.

SpeedCurb (Speed Enforcement): Three sensors are buried in the road surface, the sensors detect the presence of a vehicle and initiate the Redspeed system. The system takes three measurements from all three sensors to calculate and determine the speed at which a vehicle is travelling.

The photos do not show the 3 lines
« Last Edit: January 26, 2026, 01:03:47 pm by Mayhem007 »

Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #3 on: »
RedSpeed International makes the SpeedCurb camera. And the RedGuard red light camera. And the RedSpeed combined red light and speed camera (basically the RedGuard and SpeedCurb in the same housing).
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #4 on: »
Those dragons teeth have been repainted as well.

If you check the Streetview for 2021, you can see where the sensors are.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zx2xqK3AnEdAXfmdA

Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #5 on: »
Also the 20mph has been added since that street view.

So the Speedcurb is a singularity system. And there are 3 piezo sensors in the road, which trigger 3 photos of the camera [apparently].

Presumably the road sensors are the primary source of speed, with the secondary corroboration of the lines. My understanding is that the Gatso is not approved or of great accuracy below 30mph.

Interesting as the OP has showed that there is no data of speed on the supplied photos. One would expect that the primary detection of speed from the piezo sensors would be divulged, regardless if it was not a requirement of evedential evidence to the alleged offence.

Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #6 on: »
Hi Thanks all for responding, Andy you have clearly clarified the pros and cons of attempting a not guilty plea, it’s risky in essence their word against mine..  and from what I now understand  it would seem they do have more evidence re my speed, timings, dragons teeth but have chosen not to share them with me .. and this is perfectly within their rights? So if I were to plead not guilty they could then produce further proof ? Then the costs to me would be far higher and include points?
The discussion re camera brand and purpose left me a bit confused , I am assuming as the road has, within last couple of months been changed from 30 to 20, that the road markings and cameras have been matched and are up to date?
But again the calibration cert they included doesn’t tell me much . Tbh it feels like all the evidence they have shared with me only proves that I was there in my car… the date of alleged offence does correspond with a journey I did on that date. 
So today I am posting back my CIP and I’m also going to email them to ask if they have any more detailed pictures which include times etc .. if any response I’ll share , but in all likelihood I shall, albeit disgruntled ,  do the speed awareness course and pay the fine
Thanks all 

Re: Query re NIP - Calibration Certificate and Photos re speeding ?
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote
...and this is perfectly within their rights?

Yes. You are not entitled to any evidence whatsoever at this stage. All they need send is the NIP and the request for driver’s details. Anything else you have has been provided as a courtesy only. 

Quote
So if I were to plead not guilty they could then produce further proof ? Then the costs to me would be far higher and include points?

If you are prosecuted in court you will be served with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. This may or may not include material you have received so far.

If you are convicted following  a trial you will lose the one third discount you will be given off any fine; prosecution costs will be around £650 (considerably more if the police have to enlist an expert to counter your arguments) instead of £90. If your weekly income is £500, failure following a trial will cost you an additional £700 or more. Three points will be the outcome in either event.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:52:25 am by NewJudge »