Author Topic: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case? (Read 688 times)

mubmoh · « **on:** February 09, 2025, 07:20:14 am »

Hi,

Sorry to not contribute for my first post. Hope everyone is well! I will be precise.

Site Reference: A23 Streatham Hill nr Wyatt Park Rd S/B SW2

Alleged offence details:
Exceed a 20 MPH speed limit in contravention of a Local Traffic Order - automatic Camera device

Recorded Speed: 24 mph
Time: 01:09
Date: 25/01/2025

-System Calibration Date: 7th January 2024 - 6th January 2025

ABOUT MYSELF:
- I am able to do speed awareness course,
- Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
- Work in motor trade for a living.

Possible defence in court:
- System was out of calibration at time of offence.
- Offence occurred at 1am, where roads were empty, and no pedestrian flow at all.
- Came off a previous 30mph adjacent road.
- Never had previous driving convictions with 5 years of experience, no nature of hazardous driving.
- 24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit.
- Speeding conviction will heavily negatively impact my livelihood, as insurance premiums are based on driving ability, I currently pay £4.5k yearly (motor trade policy) and struggle with companies willing to insure me.

Do I have a case strong enough to appeal the decision? What's the best way to go about it and additionally the best argument to use?

Many thanks
Much appreciated.

Freecall · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2025, 08:52:30 am »

Nothing to appeal at present, you have not been convicted.

Quote from: mubmoh on February 09, 2025, 07:20:14 am

ABOUT MYSELF:
- I am able to do speed awareness course,
- Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
- Work in motor trade for a living.

All totally irrelevant.

Quote from: mubmoh on February 09, 2025, 07:20:14 am

Possible defence in court:
- System was out of calibration at time of offence.
- Offence occurred at 1am, where roads were empty, and no pedestrian flow at all.
- Came off a previous 30mph adjacent road.
- Never had previous driving convictions with 5 years of experience, no nature of hazardous driving.
- 24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit.
- Speeding conviction will heavily negatively impact my livelihood, as insurance premiums are based on driving ability, I currently pay £4.5k yearly (motor trade policy) and struggle with companies willing to insure me.

These are not valid defences.

OK, theoretically to be pedantic, if true, the first one could be but in practice you can disregard it.

Freecall · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2025, 08:55:41 am »

Also, to put your mind at rest a bit, you may be over-worrying about the potential impact on your insurance premiums.

mubmoh · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2025, 06:11:45 am »

Quote from: Freecall on February 09, 2025, 08:52:30 am

Nothing to appeal at present, you have not been convicted.

Quote from: mubmoh on February 09, 2025, 07:20:14 am

ABOUT MYSELF:
- I am able to do speed awareness course,
- Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
- Work in motor trade for a living.

All totally irrelevant.

Quote from: mubmoh on February 09, 2025, 07:20:14 am

Possible defence in court:
- System was out of calibration at time of offence.
- Offence occurred at 1am, where roads were empty, and no pedestrian flow at all.
- Came off a previous 30mph adjacent road.
- Never had previous driving convictions with 5 years of experience, no nature of hazardous driving.
- 24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit.
- Speeding conviction will heavily negatively impact my livelihood, as insurance premiums are based on driving ability, I currently pay £4.5k yearly (motor trade policy) and struggle with companies willing to insure me.

These are not valid defences.

OK, theoretically to be pedantic, if true, the first one could be but in practice you can disregard it.

Sorry, the defence would be I was not speeding or doing over the 20mph speed limit.

My rebuttal to the police claim of having evidence of me doing over the speed limit would be that their evidence should be dismissed as its accuracy cannot be trusted upon due to being uncalibrated, and the margin of my accused speed is small enough to a reasonable threshold to allow for doubt.

NewJudge · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2025, 08:54:35 am »

Your task will be to convince the court that the device is so unreliable that they cannot depend on its measurements so that they are sure of your guilt.

The calibration certificate being out of date is unlikely, by itself, to cast sufficient doubt in the court's mind. A device does not become unreliable the day after its certificate expires.

Firstly I would ask the police whether they have provided you with the most up to date certificate. If they have it may prompt them to discontinue out of "embarrassment." If they haven't it will save you a lot of money.

If you are convicted following a trial you will pay a fine of half a week's net income, a surcharge of 40% of that fine and prosecution costs that will be at least £650 and possibly more if the police have to provide expert evidence.

Freecall · « **Reply #5 on:** February 10, 2025, 11:16:08 am »

As NewJudge says, it woold be down to you to prove that the the equipment could not be relied upon.

You are therefore going to need an expert witness who a) is convinced that the equipment cannot be relied upon and b) is at least as credible as the expert witness the CPS/police will use.

Hopefully you have (very) deep pockets.

NewJudge · « **Reply #6 on:** February 10, 2025, 01:33:50 pm »

To expand a little, the evidence provided by speed detection devices is covered by Section 20(4) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act. It says this:

(4)A record produced or measurement made by a prescribed device shall not be admissible as evidence of a fact relevant to proceedings for an offence to which this section applies unless—

(a)the device is of a type approved by the Secretary of State, and

(b)any conditions subject to which the approval was given are satisfied.

I don’t believe any devices currently in use have annual calibration among the conditions of their type approval (though you’d need to check the particular model concerned). Regular calibration is therefore a recommendation rather than a requirement.

This leaves you in the position that the evidence provided by the device will be admitted by the court and relied upon to be accurate unless the contrary can be proved. You would not have to prove that deficiency to the criminal standard (“beyond reasonable doubt”) but you would have to cast sufficient doubt in the minds of the Magistrates so they could not rely on it.

Whilst the lack of a current calibration certificate might help your defence if you used it to support or reinforce other evidence, I do not believe that the fact the calibration was less than three weeks overdue will provide sufficient doubt.

I think if that is the sole basis of your defence, you can look forward to an expensive day out. If the police do not decide to discontinue enforcement if and when they realise the calibration certificate is out of date I think accepting the course, which they will almost certainly offer, would be the pragmatic thing to do.

andy_foster · « **Reply #7 on:** February 10, 2025, 06:23:47 pm »

Quote from: Freecall on February 09, 2025, 08:52:30 am

Nothing to appeal at present, you have not been convicted.

The OP was asking about "appealing the decision" [to process the allegation]. The title of the thread included that question "Can I beat the case?".

In many cases, the word "appeal" is used incorrectly, but the meaning is clear - is it a fait acomplis, or is there some viable challenge?
In this case, you simply cherry picked the word appeal out of context.

Quote

Quote from: mubmoh on February 09, 2025, 07:20:14 am

ABOUT MYSELF:
- I am able to do speed awareness course,
- Never had points on license with 5 years of driving
- Work in motor trade for a living.

All totally irrelevant.

Twaddle. Whilst most of what the OP has written constitutes grasping at straws, the first item in his "ABOUT MYSELF" section is very relevant. Nothing that he has disclosed suggests anything like a viable defence, for reasons that most of us have been through more times than we would like to count, his options for avoiding points are basically either the prosecution making such a monumental horlicks of the case on the day that not even the legal advisor can bail them out, or taking the speed awareness course that he can expect to be offered (assuming that he does not fire off a blunderbuss "challenge" to the police which they interpret as an intention to defend in court.

Logician · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2025, 11:14:13 am »

"24MPH is 10% + 2MPH of 20 speed limit."

That formula gives the speed at which the police will normally take action, not the speed you can do before they take action, if you have read otherwise elsewhere it is wrong, and a mistake often made. Just to make it clear, as soon as you exceed the limit you are committing the offence, but the police use their inherent discretion not to take action until a higher level.

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Author Topic: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case? (Read 688 times)

mubmoh

24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

Freecall

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

Freecall

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

mubmoh

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

NewJudge

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

Freecall

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

NewJudge

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

andy_foster

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?

Logician

Re: 24MPH in a 20. Can I beat the case?