3. 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
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Southpaw82

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2024, 07:31:34 pm »
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Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).

As accepting a fixed penalty isn’t a conviction, probably not.
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andy_foster

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2024, 09:55:14 pm »
Unless the statute was drafted somewhat haphazardly and the relevant provision was 2 sections later...

Quote
(1) Sections 28 and 29 of this Act shall have effect subject to this section in any case where—
(a) a person is convicted of an offence involving obligatory endorsement, and
(b) the court is satisfied that his driving record has been or is liable to be endorsed under section 57A or 77 of this Act in respect of an offence (referred to in this section as the “ connected offence ”) committed on the same occasion as the offence of which he is convicted.
(2) the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offence of which he is convicted is—
(a) the number of penalty points to be attributed to that offence under section 28 of this Act apart from this section, less
(b) the number of penalty points required to be endorsed on his driving record under section 57A or 77A of this Act in respect of the connected offence (except so far as they have already been deducted by virtue of this paragraph).
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Southpaw82

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2024, 10:58:31 pm »
That’s fortunate for the OP.
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Fr3ddi3

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2024, 08:09:13 am »
Email response this morning from Sussex police.

"Thank you for your e-mail.

If you have been able to view the photographic evidence, it will show that your vehicle is showing going different directions.

At 16:31:09 your vehicle is shown from the front.
At 16:31:58, your vehicle is shown from the behind

Therefore, this would be classed as two offences, therefore we cannot treat this as a single offence.

Please return the Notice Of Intended Prosecution to our office, this can be by e-mail at the above e-mail address or by post."

I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or what it means for the driver and what his best course of action will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially depends on what response he receives)
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NewJudge

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2024, 12:43:10 pm »
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I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or what it means for the driver and what his best course of action will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially depends on what response he receives)

It means that where a driver is convicted of two or more offences that occurred “on the same occasion”, although he may be fined for each of them and also have his driving record endorsed with each of them, he should only be given one lot of penalty points (for the most serious).

The interpretation of “on the same occasion” is crucial in your friend’s case. If, say, you were stopped for speeding and you also had no insurance, it is clear that you committed those two offences on the same occasion and as a result you would only receive points for the no insurance offence. “On the same occasion” is not defined. However, southpaw seems quite confident that your friend’s circumstances are covered by that phrase. I’m not aware of any case law which addresses that issue (which southpaw may be aware of) but I’m not so sure your friend’s circumstances stretch to be seen as “on the same occasion”. If he was detected speeding an hour later I would argue that does not amount to being “on the same occasion.” So how long does an “occasion” last? Only a court can answer that.

Now that the police have stated that they do not consider this to be a single offence it is likely that they will offer your friend a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for each. If he allows both matters to go to court to argue that they took place on the same occasion he may be successful and walk away with only three points. But if he is, it will cost him a whole lot more money than the fixed penalties. The total cost (fine, prosecution costs and "Victim Surcharge") for just one of the two will almost certainly be at least three times the cost of one fixed penalty and possibly much more, depending on his income. He will still also have a conviction and an endorsement on his record for the second offence which will have to be declared even though it did not attract penalty points.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 12:56:33 pm by NewJudge »
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Fr3ddi3

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2024, 07:35:31 pm »
Quote from: NewJudge on May 21, 2024, 12:43:10 pm
Quote
I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or what it means for the driver and what his best course of action will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially depends on what response he receives)

It means that where a driver is convicted of two or more offences that occurred “on the same occasion”, although he may be fined for each of them and also have his driving record endorsed with each of them, he should only be given one lot of penalty points (for the most serious).

The interpretation of “on the same occasion” is crucial in your friend’s case. If, say, you were stopped for speeding and you also had no insurance, it is clear that you committed those two offences on the same occasion and as a result you would only receive points for the no insurance offence. “On the same occasion” is not defined. However, southpaw seems quite confident that your friend’s circumstances are covered by that phrase. I’m not aware of any case law which addresses that issue (which southpaw may be aware of) but I’m not so sure your friend’s circumstances stretch to be seen as “on the same occasion”. If he was detected speeding an hour later I would argue that does not amount to being “on the same occasion.” So how long does an “occasion” last? Only a court can answer that.

Now that the police have stated that they do not consider this to be a single offence it is likely that they will offer your friend a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for each. If he allows both matters to go to court to argue that they took place on the same occasion he may be successful and walk away with only three points. But if he is, it will cost him a whole lot more money than the fixed penalties. The total cost (fine, prosecution costs and "Victim Surcharge") for just one of the two will almost certainly be at least three times the cost of one fixed penalty and possibly much more, depending on his income. He will still also have a conviction and an endorsement on his record for the second offence which will have to be declared even though it did not attract penalty points.

From that, sounds like his best option is probably to accept both Fixed Penalties and avoid court, even though it sounds like it could reasonably be argued both offences were on the same occasion.
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Southpaw82

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2024, 07:52:31 pm »
Does he want 6 points and £200 in fines (i.e. two fixed penalties) or take a chance on getting 3 points but higher fines and costs?
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Fr3ddi3

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm »
The driver has received 2 x conditional offer fixed penalties of £100 and 3 points each.

His mindset is to pay the first one and let the second one go to court (I disagree with him, I think he should pay both and move on).

He will be going back to the site in the week so will check road signs, but his argument seems to be that there was probably just one 30mph sign that he passed (and missed) for both offences. It is one error from him that has been fined twice and he thinks that is unreasonable. I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph.(I figure that last sentance is probably irrelevent to the case, but thought I would share it anyway)

We have queried with the police the exact location of the cameras because the Site ID listed on the photograph does not show up on the map of camera locations. (and he genuinely does not know where the speed gun was located - the 30mph zone continues both sides of the roundabout - we suspect it was on the north side).
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NewJudge

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2024, 10:16:14 pm »
Quote
I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph

Does the location have a system of street lighting?
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Fr3ddi3

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2024, 11:14:07 pm »
Quote from: NewJudge on June 01, 2024, 10:16:14 pm
Quote
I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph

Does the location have a system of street lighting?

Looking at Streetview, there is street lighting around the roundabout (and 2 streetlights on the approach to the roundabout), but probably no streetlighting where the speed camera was (we don't currently know the exact location)
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Fr3ddi3

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2024, 11:20:35 pm »
Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm
The driver has received 2 x conditional offer fixed penalties of £100 and 3 points each.

His mindset is to pay the first one and let the second one go to court (I disagree with him, I think he should pay both and move on).

He will be going back to the site in the week so will check road signs, but his argument seems to be that there was probably just one 30mph sign that he passed (and missed) for both offences. It is one error from him that has been fined twice and he thinks that is unreasonable. I personally know that section of road and it is an unusual one in that 30mph seems a strange limit for that section and if you don't see the sign, I can understand that you wouldn't normally expect the speed limit to be 30mph.(I figure that last sentance is probably irrelevent to the case, but thought I would share it anyway)

We have queried with the police the exact location of the cameras because the Site ID listed on the photograph does not show up on the map of camera locations. (and he genuinely does not know where the speed gun was located - the 30mph zone continues both sides of the roundabout - we suspect it was on the north side).

I've just checked streetview for speed limit signs - there are at least 3 heading south towards the roundabout (final one is only on the opposite side of the road) and after going round the roundabout, there is one shortly after the streetlights end. Doesn't seem to me his argument can hold up (he might see that next week when he goes back to the site himself)
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BertB

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Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2024, 01:50:17 pm »
Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm
The driver has received 2 x conditional offer fixed penalties of £100 and 3 points each.

As expected from his exchange with the CTO

Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm
His mindset is to pay the first one and let the second one go to court (I disagree with him, I think he should pay both and move on).

He will be going back to the site in the week so will check road signs, but his argument seems to be that there was probably just one 30mph sign that he passed (and missed) for both offences. It is one error from him that has been fined twice and he thinks that is unreasonable.

If there is a system of street lighting then only the initial terminal sign is permitted. The limit is conveyed correctly for the section of road. However, even without street lights and the need for repeaters instead, this is a bloke who claimed he hadn't gone all the way round the roundabout when he had and missed a speed camera van twice. If I was him I wouldn't be relying on his observation skills to defend this, even after checking.

Edit: Google maps suggests repeaters back in 2022
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9641991,0.4814418,3a,31.3y,111.17h,83.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTPCtlTm1PZgbdjAa4jw92A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&coh=205409&entry=ttu

Quote from: Fr3ddi3 on June 01, 2024, 04:11:33 pm
We have queried with the police the exact location of the cameras because the Site ID listed on the photograph does not show up on the map of camera locations. (and he genuinely does not know where the speed gun was located - the 30mph zone continues both sides of the roundabout - we suspect it was on the north side).

I'm not sure what this is to achieve? Unless you believe both the the camera and the offence was in the 50mph section?

He is unlikely to get the second offence overturned based on his can't remembers and not sures. So overall what would he like to achieve? 

Quote from: Southpaw82 on May 21, 2024, 07:52:31 pm
Does he want 6 points and £200 in fines (i.e. two fixed penalties) or take a chance on getting 3 points but higher fines and costs?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2024, 01:52:16 pm by BertB »
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