3. PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
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0james0

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PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« on: November 07, 2024, 12:04:53 pm »
I have received the attached from PPS.

I replied to them today, using their appeal form as that was the only way I could see to make contact with them.

I simply asked them if they could provide a clearer image, that would be able to identify the driver, because there are 3 possible drivers in my house and between us we are unsure who was driving at the time.

They replied shortly after, to advise my appeal has been declined and all appeal avenues with them have now been exhausted.

We are not sure of who the driver is, but as the registered keeper, will they successfully be able to just hold me liable regardless, if I am unable to identify the driver?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 12:35:50 pm by 0james0 »
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DWMB2

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2024, 12:14:05 pm »
Please show us the other half of the notice.
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0james0

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2024, 12:20:57 pm »
Quote from: DWMB2 on November 07, 2024, 12:14:05 pm
Please show us the other half of the notice.

I am not sure what you mean? did the entire page not show? I have checked the upload and show's the entire page 1?

Page 2,3 and 4 are just generic invited to appeal/ pay pages.
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DWMB2

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2024, 12:30:29 pm »
Quote from: 0james0 on November 07, 2024, 12:20:57 pm
Page 2,3 and 4 are just generic invited to appeal/ pay pages.
Whether they are able to hold you liable as the registered keeper using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 depends on the content of those generic pages.
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Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice

0james0

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2024, 12:37:26 pm »
Quote from: DWMB2 on November 07, 2024, 12:30:29 pm
Quote from: 0james0 on November 07, 2024, 12:20:57 pm
Page 2,3 and 4 are just generic invited to appeal/ pay pages.
Whether they are able to hold you liable as the registered keeper using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 depends on the content of those generic pages.

I see, my apologies, I have now updated the document to include all 4 pages.

Really appreciate you taking your time out to help
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b789

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2024, 12:41:10 pm »
There should be references to "Keeper" liability and POFA 2012. Show us all the pages or back of the Notice to Keeper (NtK).

Any appeal was always doomed to failure as will be any appeal to the IAS. If you are unsure of who the driver was, because it sounds like you intend to throw them under the proverbial bus if you can identify them from any photographic evidence, is that because, as the Keeper, if it was not you driving, you think that the PCN has been issued fairly and the driver should just pay it?

Once we have seen the rest of the NtK, we can verify whether it does indeed fully comply with ALL there requirements of PoFA to be able to hold the Keeper liable. In many cases it does not and there is no legal obligation on the keeper to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company.
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0james0

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2024, 01:01:55 pm »
Quote from: b789 on November 07, 2024, 12:41:10 pm
There should be references to "Keeper" liability and POFA 2012. Show us all the pages or back of the Notice to Keeper (NtK).

Any appeal was always doomed to failure as will be any appeal to the IAS. If you are unsure of who the driver was, because it sounds like you intend to throw them under the proverbial bus if you can identify them from any photographic evidence, is that because, as the Keeper, if it was not you driving, you think that the PCN has been issued fairly and the driver should just pay it?

Once we have seen the rest of the NtK, we can verify whether it does indeed fully comply with ALL there requirements of PoFA to be able to hold the Keeper liable. In many cases it does not and there is no legal obligation on the keeper to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company.

They only sent to me those 4 pages that I have uploaded, there was nothing else included within the envelope.

It may well have been me driving, I am not sure, so it might well be me that I would be throwing under the bus! At this stage, I simply wanted to figure out who the driver was, so that person could then decide if they wanted to appeal or pay, whilst at the same time, trying to work out that if I could not figure this out, then it would be me who had to deal with it, as the keeper.



 
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b789

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2024, 01:08:59 pm »
That NtK appears to be fully compliant with PoFA, so, whether the driver is identified or not, the Keeper can be held liable for the charge.

The issue now becomes one of whether you feel the PCN has been issued fairly. Was the vehicle "unauthorised", whatever that actually means?

Is this the location?



Signage would be important in this case.
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0james0

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2024, 01:15:32 pm »
Quote from: b789 on November 07, 2024, 01:08:59 pm
That NtK appears to be fully compliant with PoFA, so, whether the driver is identified or not, the Keeper can be held liable for the charge.

The issue now becomes one of whether you feel the PCN has been issued fairly. Was the vehicle "unauthorised", whatever that actually means?

Is this the location?

[img width=500.0000305175781 height=438.0000305175781]https://i.imgur.com/ajGb9Kd.jpeg[/img]

Signage would be important in this case.

That is the correct location.

Am I right to assume the next course of action will be for me to revisit the site and collect photos of the signage, so I can see what terms were agreed to by entering the site and how my vehicle was "unauthorised"?

At least I now know that it is my problem to deal with regardless of who the driver was.
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b789

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Re: PS - PCN - Unsure of driver
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2024, 01:22:25 pm »
It always helps if you can show the signs and the general layout of those signs. What was the reason for being at the location? Why do you think the driver was unaware that they were on private land subject to control by a private parking operator?

Have you tried Plan A? The landowner of their managing agent can always request that their contracted agent, the PPC, cancel the PCN, especially if there was a valid reason to be parked at the location.
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