Author Topic: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich  (Read 4324 times)

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Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #30 on: »
Thanks for the details, I've now received the N180 form. Just a quick question, should I leave the mediation section blank?

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #31 on: »
Thanks for the details, I've now received the N180 form. Just a quick question, should I leave the mediation section blank?
No.
Mediation is now mandatory, but you will offer £0 to settle and your offer won’t be accepted. It’s a box-ticking exercise for the court system.
Search this forum for many examples and discussion.

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #32 on: »
You are looking at a copy of the claimants, out of date form. As mentioned above, mediation is now mandatory.

Having received your own N180 (make sure it is not simply a copy of the claimants N180), do not use the paper form. Ignore all the other forms that came with it. you can discard those. Download your own here and fill it in on your computer. You sign it by simply typing your full name in the signature box.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/673341e779e9143625613543/N180_1124.pdf

Here are the answers to some of the less obvious questions:

• The name of the court is "Civil National Business Centre".

• To be completed by "Your full name" and you are the "Defendant".

• C1: "YES"

• D1: "NO". Reason: "I wish to question the Claimant about their evidence at a hearing in person and to expose omissions and any misleading or incorrect evidence or assertions.
Given the Claimant is a firm who complete cut & paste parking case paperwork for a living, having this case heard solely on papers would appear to put the Claimant at an unfair advantage, especially as they would no doubt prefer the Defendant not to have the opportunity to expose the issues in the Claimants template submissions or speak as the only true witness to events in question
.."

• F1: Whichever is your nearest county court. Use this to find it: https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/search-option

• F3: "1".

• Sign the form by simply typing your full name for the signature.

When you have completed the form, attach it to a single email addressed to both dq.cnbc@justice.gov.uk and info@dcblegal.co.uk and CC in yourself. Make sure that the claim number is in the subject field of the email.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #33 on: »
A date has now been set for the court hearing next month, and DCB Legal have filed a witness statement. So unfortunately it looks like they intend to pursue this in court :/

Is there anyone I could DM directly to share the witness statement, and discuss next steps? I'd rather not post the entire witness statement online to avoid leaking personal information.


Thanks

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #34 on: »
We don't generally conduct advice in private - part of the benefit of a forum is that you can see other people's cases and use them to help you with your own.

You can redact personal information before sharing your draft. When is the hearing, when is their deadline for paying the hearing fee, and when is your deadline for submitting Witness statements.

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #35 on: »
The hearing has been scheduled for the 27th of April, with the fee to be paid by the claimnant. Unfortunately I've missed the deadline to submit witness statement. Will contact the court to see if it's still possible to submit it.

I'd like to address some of the points made in their witness statement, if appropriate to do so in my own witness statement. For reference I've linked their witness statement here: https://pdfhost.io/v/LQGdjELJ3m_Witness_Statement

In particular, I'm seeking guidance on how to respond to the following two claims:

I refer to the decision in One Parking Solution Ltd v Wilshaw [2021] (“Wilshaw”) whereby it was found  that  it  is not  necessary  for  the Claimant  
to  prove the  Landowner’s  authority  to  constitute  a valid cause of action to recover the Parking Charge,
what is required is proof that there is a binding contract between the Claimant and the Defendant.
Further, it was found in Wilshaw that the contract between the Claimant and the Freeholder (Landowner) does not affect the validity of any contract between the Claimant and the Defendant.

My Company acknowledges the Defendant’s reference to another unrelated Claim that had been struck out due to the Particulars of Claim.
Respectfully, this is irrelevant, the Court has not determined the Particulars of Claim for this Claim to be insufficient when considering the case prior to allocation.
The Defendant seeking to rely on an unrelated matter is frivolous at best. The Charge remains due and the Defendant remains liable.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2026, 03:33:39 pm by m_odwong@hotmail.com »

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #36 on: »
When was the deadline for submitting?
When is the claimant's deadline for paying the fee?

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #37 on: »
Please contact the Court as a matter of urgency with regard to Witness Statement submission.

Check on MCOL to see if a submission is still possible?

Please answer the other questions above as quickly as possible.

Having checked the evidence PDF, I can see that the original NtK is not PoFA compliant as a section of mandatory wording required by Schedule 4 Paragraph 9(2)(f) is missing from the VCS issued NtK.

I also note with interest that VCS wrongly state that you have admitted that you were the driver - I have read the appeal and I can see that you appealed as keeper and that the driver was never revealed.

In the VCS appeal response they wrongly state that you admitted to being the driver - this demonstrates how VCS behave.

Can we assume that the Witness for VCS is in fact the hapless Jake Burgess? No need to redact anything other than your personal details!

I can come up with some defence points.

They will probably pull out anyway.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2026, 05:56:51 pm by InterCity125 »

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #38 on: »
Thanks all for all the help so far.

The deadline for paying the fee is 30th Mar 2026, the deadline for submitting: "to the other party and to the court office copies of all documents on which that party intends to rely at the hearing no later than 4pm on 27th February 2026".

Yes correct, I never admitted to being the driver.

And yes the witness is indeed Jake Burgess, I thought I'd better err on the side of caution before releasing someone else's personal details, even if they were acting in an official capacity.

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #39 on: »
Can I ask when VCS submitted their Witness Statement?

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #40 on: »
If you can get something written over the weekend, send it to the relevant parties on Monday and essentially hope for the best. There's sometimes a fair amount of leeway given to litigants in person, so you might as well try.

Quote
They will probably pull out anyway.
Which solicitors (if any) are they using? VCS can be one of the more stubborn ones who do actually turn up for hearings and even routinely send their advocates to court with instructions to seek permission to appeal if they lose.

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #41 on: »
Skeleton defence below.

Please quickly read up on how a defence should be presented - there's plenty of other threads which demonstrate this.

I'm uncertain why the Court have requested Witness Statements so early in the process when the hearing is almost 2 months away.

Anyhow, I think you'll be okay.

When did VCS provide their WS?



VCS Defence Points


And I will say;


That the claim is denied in its entirety and that absolutely no debt is owed by the Defendant to the Claimant.

That it is accepted by the Defendant that they were the Registered Keeper of the Vehicle on the material date - this is not disputed.

That the Defendant robustly disputes that they have admitted being the driver of the vehicle at the material time.

That as the vehicle keeper there is no legal requirement for me to reveal who was driving and I will not be doing so.

That in his Witness Statement (WS), Mr Jake Burgess (JB) makes numerous unsupported assertions that indicate that I was the vehicle driver at the material time.

That in his evidence JB provides Exhibit 7 which is my initial appeal enquiry to the parking operator - I accept that this was sent by myself.

That in that appeal enquiry it is clearly shown that my appeal was made by myself but purely as vehicle keeper - I would specifically draw the Court's attention to the sentence on the Exhibit 7 which states; "Note : Keeper was the selected choice."

That when making an appeal, the appellant is specifically asked to choose the legal basis on which the appeal is made - the choice being 'Driver' or 'Keeper' - in this instance it is clear that I chose to make the appeal as keeper.

That, not withstanding the previous point, the wording in my appeal enquiry is made in the third person - Whilst I made a number of enquiries of the operator, I did not at any point reveal who was driving at the material time - I simply question the signage and specify that I understood that payment had been made.

That in the second document of Exhibit 7 the operator appears to deliberately claim that I had admitted to being the driver - this appears to be an attempt to force liability onto a keeper who has made no such admission in an appeal enquiry which was specifically made as vehicle keeper - I believe that this point demonstrates the Claimants predatory and bulling nature when pursuing a private parking charge.

That, therefore, it appears very obvious that the Claimant is not able prove who was driving at the material time.

That the Claimant's Witness Statement is actually fishing for liability.

That, at point 21 in his WS, JB states that the Claimant also believes that I was the driver 'because otherwise I would nominated another driver' - this point is firmly rebutted on the basis that there is no legal requirement for a vehicle keeper to provide driver information to a private parking operator.

That I will rely on the persuasive Appeal Court case of VCS Ltd v Edward if required - this case demonstrates that the Claimant is required to provide specific evidence to prove who was driving and that no assumption can be made as to who was driving - the same case also preserves the keepers right 'to say nothing' when a Claimant asks a keeper to identify a driver.

That, further to the previous point, the provision of driver details to the operator would, on the balance of probabilities, be the provision of the details of a family member / close friend / work colleague etc - why would a keeper provide those details when there was no legal requirement to do so?

That, based on the above, the claim made by JB in his WS regarding the identification of the driver is demonstrably false.

That, in the alternative, the Claimant appears to state that they will rely on Protection of Freedoms Act (2012) (PoFA) in order try and shift liability from an unknown driver to the vehicle keeper.

That liability under PoFA is robustly denied.

That in order to invoke keeper liability under PoFA, the Claimant must adhere to a particularly strict set of rules and regulations - these rules and regulations are set out in the legislation itself - most of these rules and regulations set out the requirements of information which MUST be contained on the parking operator issued Notice to Keeper (NtK) - this appears to be accepted by the Claimant.

That the Claimant states that their NtK is compliant with PoFA.

That this assertion is rebutted by the Defendant - the operator issued NtK is not complaint as it omits strictly required mandatory wording.

That the legislation demands that the NtK is TOTALLY compliant in order for keeper liability to be invoked and, therefore, the missing mandatory wording is immediately fatal to the Claimant's reliance on PoFA to transfer liability onto the keeper.

That, in particular, the parking operators NtK is not compliant with the requirements of PoFA because it fails to provide all the information which is required by PoFA Schedule 4 Paragraph 9(2)(f).

That Paragraph 9(2)(f) 'warning to keeper' requires that the operator issue the keeper with a series of warnings which set out the conditions of the legislation.

That in this instance the wording presented by the parking operator does not warn the keeper that the operator can only rely on PoFA if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met.

That Paragraph 9(2)(f) specifies that;


The Notice MUST warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and

(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;



That the sentence "if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met" is missing from the Claimants NtK - the legislation states that the NtK MUST contain this information if this NtK is to be relied upon by the Claimant.

That liability under PoFA is therefore denied.

That the Claimant now has no legal route by which they can hold me liable.

That I contend that the Claimant may already be aware of the PoFA issues with their NtKs and this therefore explains the Claimant's keenness to persuade the Court that I had admitted liability as the vehicle driver.

That not withstanding all the above, I reasonably suggest that the Claimant's behaviour in this matter is clearly predatory in nature given the tightness of the car park timings as set out in the Claimant's evidence.

That the Claimant is clearly using some kind of 'time on site' calculation in order to prove the alleged overstay in a situation where the 'time of site' argument is particularly tight when all things are considered.

That 'time on site' does not actually demonstrate the true time that a vehicle was actually 'parked' especially in circumstances where the car park is busy.

That this claim would clearly fall under the de minimis principle - this additionally demonstrates the predatory nature of the Claimant.

That the Claimant's own car park timings show that this dispute is actually a dispute over just a few minutes.

That the Claimant's own evidence shows that the driver purchased 2 hours parking and that the paid parking expired at 14.36 on the day in question - the parking operator Code of Practice specifies that drivers should be given a minimum of 10 minutes grace period at the end of a parking session - with the additional 10 minutes minimum the expiry time becomes 14.46 - the Claimant's own evidence shows the driver leaving the site at 14.49 - therefore the Claimant is pursuing the Defendant for what amounts to an extra 3 or 4 minutes on site.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:27:36 am by InterCity125 »

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #42 on: »
Thanks Intercity, could you have a quick review of this draft defense? VCS provided their witness statement a day before it was due (on the 26th of Feb):


Background

1. The claim is denied in its entirety and I deny that any debt is owed to the Claimant. It is accepted that I was the registered keeper of the vehicle on the material date. The Claimant has produced no evidence capable of establishing that I was the driver.

Driver Identity

2. The Claimant asserts within the witness statement of Mr Jake Burgess that I admitted to being the driver. This assertion is incorrect. The only document relied upon by the Claimant in support of this claim is the appeal enquiry contained within Exhibit 7 of their evidence bundle.

3. I accept that the appeal enquiry was submitted by me. However it was submitted strictly in my capacity as the registered keeper of the vehicle. The appeal system requires the appellant to select whether the appeal is being made as the driver or as the keeper and in this case the option “Keeper” was clearly selected.

4. The wording of the appeal itself refers to the driver in the third person and contains no admission as to the identity of the driver. At no stage have I admitted to being the driver.

5. Mr Burgess also suggests that I must have been the driver because I did not nominate another individual. This suggestion is legally incorrect. There is no statutory obligation requiring a vehicle keeper to identify the driver to a private parking operator.

6. I rely upon the persuasive authority of Vehicle Control Services Ltd v Edward which confirmed that a parking operator must provide evidence of driver identity and cannot simply assume that the registered keeper was the driver.


Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

7. The Claimant alternatively seeks to rely upon Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“PoFA”) in order to transfer liability from the unknown driver to the registered keeper. Liability under PoFA is denied.

8. In order to rely upon PoFA, a parking operator must comply strictly with the statutory requirements set out within Schedule 4. These requirements include the inclusion of specific mandatory wording within the Notice to Keeper.

9. The Notice to Keeper issued by the Claimant fails to include all of the mandatory wording required by Schedule 4 Paragraph 9(2)(f). In particular the notice fails to include the wording that the creditor will have the right to recover the parking charge from the keeper “if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met”.

10. As the statutory wording is incomplete the Notice to Keeper is not compliant with PoFA and the Claimant cannot transfer liability to the registered keeper.


Grace Period and Minimal Overstay

11. The Claimant’s own evidence demonstrates that the driver purchased two hours of parking and that the paid parking period expired at approximately 14:36.

12. The relevant parking industry Code of Practice requires that motorists be allowed a minimum grace period of ten minutes to leave a car park after the expiry of paid parking time. Applying that grace period the relevant expiry time becomes approximately 14:46.

13. The Claimant’s own evidence shows that the vehicle exited the site at approximately 14:49. The alleged breach therefore amounts to approximately three minutes beyond the minimum grace period.

14. The alleged breach is trivial and falls within the legal principle of de minimis non curat lex. Unlike the circumstances in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, this is a paid car park where the driver purchased a valid parking session. The alleged overstay amounts to only a few minutes beyond the applicable grace period. In these circumstances there is no evidence of any legitimate commercial justification for enforcing a £100 charge, particularly where the parking tariff had already been paid.


ANPR Time Versus Parking Time

15. The Claimant relies upon ANPR timestamps showing the time the vehicle entered and exited the site. These timestamps represent the time on site rather than the actual time the vehicle was parked.

16. Drivers entering a busy car park must locate a parking space, manoeuvre the vehicle and later return to the vehicle before exiting the site. The Claimant’s calculation therefore does not accurately represent the time the vehicle was parked.


Signage and Contract Formation

17. The Claimant relies upon signage at the site to assert that a binding contract was formed with the driver. However the signage exhibited within the Claimant’s bundle raises several issues.

18. The signage states that motorists should refer to “full Terms and Conditions signs located at the Pay and Display machines”. This means that the full contractual terms are not displayed at the entrance to the car park. The Supreme Court in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] confirmed that for a parking charge to be enforceable the terms must be clear and prominently displayed so that motorists have fair notice of them before parking.

19. The signage also states that “Any Driver/Registered Keeper remaining in this car park 10 minutes after entry agree in full to the Terms & Conditions”. This wording is problematic because a registered keeper cannot enter into a contract simply by the presence of a vehicle. Contract law requires that the driver, as the person capable of accepting contractual terms, must be the party entering into the contract.

20. The wording therefore attempts to impose contractual liability upon a registered keeper who has not entered into any contract with the operator. This type of wording has been criticised in multiple parking cases where operators have attempted to extend contractual liability beyond the driver.


Landowner Authority

21. The signage at the site clearly states that Excel Parking Services Ltd manage and control the car park. The Claimant in this case is Vehicle Control Services Ltd which is a separate legal entity.

22. The Claimant relies upon a document titled “Leaseholder Witness Statement” which asserts that Excel instructed Vehicle Control Services Ltd to manage parking at the site. However the underlying lease agreement has not been produced and the document amounts only to an unsupported assertion.

23. The Claimant is therefore put to strict proof that it has the necessary authority from the landowner to issue and enforce parking charges and to pursue this claim.


Additional Charges

24. The claim includes additional sums beyond the original parking charge. Such additional sums are commonly described as debt recovery costs.

25. In Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson (2020) the court held that such additional charges were not recoverable and amounted to an abuse of process.


Conclusion

26. The Claimant has failed to establish driver liability.

27. The Claimant has failed to establish keeper liability under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

28. The alleged breach concerns a trivial overstay largely within recognised grace periods.

29. The Claimant has failed to demonstrate that it has proper authority from the landowner.

30. For all of these reasons I respectfully request that the Court dismiss the claim.


Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #43 on: »
Not blowing my own trumpet here but I would have transcribed my defence points word for word in the WS.

The idea is to present evidence in a certain way and also to 'make hay' in terms of the behaviour of the claimant.

I am not saying that you should not add additional points but in this case those addition points are diluting the strength of the main defence points which are both potential winners in their own right.

There is an art to this which is hard to explain.

Make the WS too big and you risk i) pi$$ing the Judge off and, ii) looking like you are including frivolous defence points.

Re: VCS - Parked after expiry time - Powis Car Park, Woolwich
« Reply #44 on: »
Not blowing my own trumpet here but I would have transcribed my defence points word for word in the WS.
I would recommend presenting them in the first person for a WS.