Author Topic: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light  (Read 258 times)

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BDayOwl

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Hi all,

Letter of Claim received today. What are the next steps?

b789

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What is the "issue date" of the claim? Please show us the Particulars of Claim (PoC).
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

BDayOwl

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Letter is dated 29th August 2024.

Picture here: https://imgur.com/a/w8EDu7w

b789

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Apologies, I thought it was an N1SDT claim form you received. Respond with the following:

Quote
Subject: Response to Letter of Claim dated 29th August 2024

Dear DCB Legal,

I acknowledge receipt of your Letter of Claim dated 29th August 2024.

Please note that my address for service, assuming you intend to proceed without undue delay, is as follows: [YOUR ADDRESS]. I require that any previous addresses be removed from your records in accordance with data protection regulations.

I wish to make it clear that the alleged debt is disputed, and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended. No contract can have been entered into, as any signage at the location is prohibitory. It is embarrassing that a firm of supposed legal representatives does not understand this concept.

It has also come to my attention that the amount claimed has been substantially increased by an additional £70. The Government has previously referred to such charges as 'extorting money from motorists,' and I share this view. Therefore, I expect you to refrain from sending any further correspondence justifying this inflated claim without addressing the specific points I raise below.

Under the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, I am entitled to request specific information, and I ask that you provide clear answers to the following questions:

1. Am I correct in understanding that the additional £70 is being claimed as a 'Debt Recovery' fee? If so, is this amount inclusive or exclusive of VAT? If it is inclusive, please explain why I am being asked to cover the VAT liability of the operator.

2. Regarding the principal sum allegedly due under the PCN: Is this being claimed as damages, or is it intended to be pleaded as consideration for a service (i.e., parking)?

3. I will require evidence of a contract flowing from the landowner, Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan (OTPP), through their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, to your client, evidencing their contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name.

I look forward to your prompt and full response to these queries.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Full Name]
« Last Edit: September 04, 2024, 02:02:57 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

BDayOwl

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Received quite a swift reply.

Quote
We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 4th September 2024.

 

We now respond to the same as follows.

 

The address we have on our records is your current address - XXXXXXX.

Any previous addresses have been removed.

 

The HMRC ‘VAT Supply and Consideration manual’ (VATSC06140), which was last updated on 02 September 2020, confirmed that parking charge notices falls out of the scope of VAT. There is no requirement for a VAT invoice to be issued to you.

The sum added is a contribution to the actual costs incurred by our client as a result of your non-payment. Our client’s employees have spent time and material attempting to recover the debt. This is not our client’s usual business, and the resources could have been better spent in other areas of the business. Had you of paid as per the Contract, there would have been no need for recovery action so the amount due would not have increased.

In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, where the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) becomes overdue and before Court proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum may be added for the debt recovery fees. BPA - 24.1b “Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue and before Court Proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum (which covers the cost of recovering debt) may be added for the debt recovery fees. This sum must not exceed £70 unless prior approval from the BPA has been granted”. The correct recovery fees have been added and will not be removed.

 

Please see the attached contract agreement.

 
You now have 30 days from the date of this email to make payment of £170.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.

Payment can be made via bank transfer to our designated client account: -

Account Name: DCB Legal Ltd Client Account 
Sort Code: 20-24-09 
Account Number: 60964441
You must quote the correct case reference (XXXXX) when making payment. If you do not, we may be unable to correctly allocate the payment. If further action is taken by us as a result of an incorrect reference being quoted, you will be liable for any further fees or costs incurred.

Alternatively, you can contact DCB Legal Ltd on 0203 838 7038 to make payment over the telephone or online at https://dcblegal.co.uk/response/pay-online/.

 
Kind Regards, 

 

Shahera Begum

Administration Associate

DCB Legal Ltd 

Attachment: https://imgur.com/a/R0i2Oa3
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 11:08:32 am by BDayOwl »

DWMB2

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Your question #1 was about the debt collection fees, not whether the original parking charge is subject to VAT. They haven't even bothered to answer #2. For #3, you have only uploaded 3 pages (of what should be 8, by the looks of the footers), is that because they only sent you 3?

That contract had also expired at the time the parking charge notice was issued.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 11:10:29 am by DWMB2 »

BDayOwl

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Yes, this is everything they sent me.

At this point do I go back questioning those points?

BDayOwl

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I also note that they've alluded to the BPA's code of practice, but VCS aren't a BPA Approved Operator. Is this anything?

b789

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Is what you’ve shown us, the sum total of the “contract” they have sent to you?

Regarding the “template” response to the other questions asked...

Quote
This is not our client’s usual business, and the resources could have been better spent in other areas of the business. Had you of paid as per the Contract, there would have been no need for recovery action so the amount due would not have increased.

Just to highlight the level of intellectual malnourishment you are dealing with here, you can tell by the highlighted bit above that you are dealing with people who apparently never finished basic English grammar in primary school.

The response to the three questions is evasive and incomplete, providing limited answers and not addressing all your concerns directly. You asked whether the £70 charge is a debt recovery fee and if it's inclusive or exclusive of VAT, specifically why you'd be covering the operator’s VAT liability.

They cite the HMRC guidance, asserting that parking charges fall outside the scope of VAT, so no VAT invoice is needed. They have not directly clarified whether the £70 includes VAT or addressed the concern about VAT liability being passed to you. They have avoided explaining the exact composition of the £70 fee in terms of VAT and have tried to justify it as a debt recovery fee based on internal costs.

The second question asked whether the principal sum was being claimed as damages or as consideration for a service. In their response, they don’t explicitly answer whether it's damages or consideration, but they imply the amount reflects what you would have (of) paid under the contract (for parking). They emphasise that the fee increased due to non-payment and recovery efforts. The nature of the principal sum remains vague as they focus on the rationale for additional fees rather than clarifying the legal basis of the charge itself (damages vs. consideration).

The third question requested evidence of a valid contract involving the landowner, OTPP, and their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, granting their client the right to issue PCNs. The excuse for a contract provided, consists of only three pages (cover page, definitions/services, and a partial signature page).

Crucially, the contract appears to be between Bristol Airport Ltd and the agent, VCS, not the landowner, as specifically requested. They have provided a partial contract that does not fully meet the request, as it lacks clear evidence of direct authorisation flowing from the landowner (OTPP) through the agent to VCS. The documentation is minimal and incomplete.

Their response is evasive and focuses on justifying the charges rather than addressing the specific legal queries. The VAT issue is not fully explained, the legal nature of the principal sum is unclear and the excuse for a contract provided does not sufficiently prove the authority they claim to have from the landowner.

DCB Legal are issuing thousands of claims every week and there appears to be a significant financial incentive to obscure the VAT aspect, particularly since they’ve chosen to sidestep the clear question regarding whether the £70 fee includes VAT. By failing to clarify whether the £70 is inclusive of VAT, they have avoided having to account for VAT payments to HMRC. This allows them to pocket the full amount, effectively overcharging you.

As the fee should include VAT but they are not declaring it, this amounts to VAT fraud as they are collecting VAT from consumers without passing it on to the tax authorities. Debt recovery fees are supposed to reflect actual costs, but by inflating the figure and leaving the VAT question ambiguous, they anre unjustly enriching themselves under the guise of "cost recovery."

As we strongly suspect VAT fraud, you should report the matter to HMRC, which may investigate whether the company is correctly accounting for VAT on these additional fees. It takes a few minutes to do so online here:

https://www.gov.uk/report-tax-fraud

It’s very straightforward and once reported, you will have no further involvement. The sums involved are suspected to be in the “millions”.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

BDayOwl

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Thanks for the above.

Yes, just to be clear, the 3 pages I've shared is the sum of what was sent to me by DCBLegal.

Very good point on the VAT front. I'll report them immediately.

b789

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We don’t normally recommend responding to their response to your response to the LoC but I’m minded to suggest something, just to give them notice that even though they are going to discontinue the claim in due course, they are on notice that their failure to comply with the PAP by not providing the answers or the full contract, is going to cause them anxiety as they scramble to cover their backsides.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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DWMB2

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I'm broadly of the same view as b789... In general it's not worth getting into protracted correspondence at this stage. They're not going to budge from their position that you owe their client money and you're not going to budge from your position that you do not.

But in this case, they haven't even bothered to answer one of your questions, and have done a shoddy job of answering the other two. Given that, pointing this out seems a decent movie.

I'd be minded to ignore the contract date at this stage. If they want to present a contract that expired in 2023 as evidence they had authority to issue parking charges in 2024, let them crack on.

b789

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It is probably worth responding to them with the following:

Quote
Subject: Mendacious Response and Failure to Comply with PAP

Dear Shahera Begum,

I write to address the glaring contradictions in your recent response and your apparent disregard for honesty and transparency.

You have stated that parking charge notices fall outside the scope of VAT according to HMRC’s VATSC06140, and therefore, no VAT invoice is required. However, you go on to state that the additional £70 is for "debt recovery fees" incurred by your client as a result of my alleged non-payment.

This assertion is inconsistent and misleading. Debt recovery fees, unlike parking charges, are not VAT-exempt. You have explicitly admitted that the £70 is for debt recovery, which is a separate service from the PCN. As such, these charges are subject to VAT. Yet, you have chosen to obscure this fact by refusing to provide a breakdown of the amount or clarify whether VAT has been included. This evasiveness strongly suggests that you and/or your client are knowingly attempting to recover an inflated sum without properly accounting for VAT.

Furthermore, your reliance on the BPA Code of Practice to justify the £70 fee does not negate the fact that debt recovery services are not VAT exempt. Your failure to disclose whether VAT is included in this fee, combined with your attempt to characterise the £70 as part of a debt recovery process, exposes a deliberate effort to mislead.

Should this matter proceeds to court, I will bring to the court's attention your blatant contradictions, your mendacious response, and your refusal to comply with the Pre-Action Protocol. This lack of honesty and transparency will be noted as an attempt to confuse and overcharge. The court is unlikely to look favourably upon such conduct, especially when coupled with your disregard for the rules governing pre-litigation disclosure.

I strongly suggest you reconsider your position and provide the clarity and full documentation required by the PAP, including a proper breakdown of the £70 fee with reference to VAT. If you fail to do so, I will have no hesitation in using your own admissions against you and your client in any subsequent proceedings.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]

Keep the failure to disclose the contract and the fact that they have failed to evidence the contract for subsequent comms. Let's see if they bother to respond to the above.

It is a fact that any claim issued by DCB Legal will be discontinued just before they are required to pay the trial fee. The above is simply to have a bit of fun at their expense and puts them on notice that they are not dealing with low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 03:04:38 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

BDayOwl

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Appreciate the help! I've already sent a response but it effectively covers all of the points in your message.

Thanks again.

b789

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It would help if you could show us any planned response, just in case there is anything that could prejudice your case that you may not have noticed but maybe we will.

Can you please show us the wording you used in your response?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain