3. UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
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UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
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The rider parked exactly where the shopping cart is on the paved area: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4313643,-0.0351235,3a,90y,352.38h,74.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suTt8WPXYc6rIsN9ByHNQdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Went shopping for an hour, came back, rode home.

The silly rider didn't know there even was a private company operating there. Motorcycles always park in that area, and the rider mostly did the same. This car park is always half empty.

The rider wishes to not pay a single penny, needless to say. Can they for example remember that on the day, they parked in a bay correctly, but someone has moved their bike to that forbidden zone? Or do you reckon some other grounds?

I am the registered keeper of the bike, who got the ticket in the post today.

Appreciate any help in advance.

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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #1 on: »
Have you tired Plan A yet? You day you "went shopping". Is the "shop" the the landowner? Did the "shop" contract UKPC to manage their car park? Go as high up the management food chain to complain about receiving a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company for an alleged breach of contract because you were a patron of the business.

As this is UKPC, whatever happens, you won't be paying a penny. Technically, you are not "parked" on the "car park". Does their contract cover them "managing" the paved area outwith the "car park"?

In any case, do not respond to anything except as the "keeper". No one has a clue who the "driver" is. As they have not fully complied with PoFA 9(2)(a) and (b) in that there is no mention of the "period of parking", they cannot hold the keeper liable for the charge.

Plan A is your complaint to the landowner or whoever it was that contracted UKPC. Plan B is an appeal to UKPC. Plan C is an appeal to POPLA and Plan D is a county court claim where this would eventually be discontinued.

For now, concentrate on Plan A.
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #2 on: »
Hi b789, thank you that's quite reassuring - there are a number of shops there, Aldi was frequented on this occasion. I will make a formal complaint to Aldi today. Couldn't definitively find who the land owner is, so I guess Aldi it is. The paved area actually has a bicycle locking area on the left. I've seen so many motorcycles park on this section before that I never even questioned it.
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #3 on: »
Hi again - I tried finding the owner of this retail park, and it "seems" to be Sydenham LP. Couldn't find much detail about them, apart from they are owned partly by Kier Group. Couldn't get anywhere with Aldi either, they only take complaints about a specific product! I am planning on going to that Aldi again soon, and to ask the manager if they could help with cancelling this. To be honest, I'm not holding my breath as it's a large retail park with multiple shops..

My Question is, shall I just go ahead and appeal to UKPC? I've seen on other threads people suggest appealing on day 26. Also I'll be appealing on "period of parking not mentioned" and "bike not parked on the car park" ?
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #4 on: »
The only reason to delay appealing to day 26 is if you received an NtD, which you didn't you received an NtK. As long as you appeal on or before 29th May, you will be OK.

You appeal only as the keeper. Of course you mention the breach of PoFA 9(2)(a) and (b). It is that failure to comply with the strict requirements of PoFA that means they cannot transfer liability to the keeper. They have no idea who the driver is. Do you see where this is going?

PoFA 9(2)(a) and (b) state:

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A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met. The notice must specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates; inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full.

Please show where the "specified period of parking" is mentioned anywhere in the NtK. By failing to comply with the PoFA requirements, they can only pursue the driver. They have no idea who that is.

By failing to fully comply with the strict requirements of PoFA, they have also breached their own ATAs CoP at 2.4, 19.4, 21.2, 21.12 and 21.13 to name a few.

I would also query the fact that the vehicle is not parked on the car park. It is parked on the pedestrian area. I would demand that they provide evidence of their contract with the landowner that proves they are allowed to issue PCNs to any vehicle that is not parked in the actual car park.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 05:02:53 pm by b789 »
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #5 on: »
Wording along these lines is appropriate for a UKPC issued NtK with the flaws mentioned above:

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This is an appeal by the registered keeper - No driver details will be given. Please do NOT try the usual trick of asking for driver details in order to get around the fact your NtK does not comply with PoFA. As there are obvious failures to fully comply with the strict requirements of PoFA 9(2)(a) and (b), there can be no keeper liability.

Additionally, as you have not complied fully with the requirements of PoFA, you have also breached the BPA Code of Practice at 2.4, 19.4, 21.2, 21.12 and 21.13.

The vehicle was not parked on the car park, therefore you have no authority to issue a PCN. Unless you can evidence landowner authority to issue PNCs to vehicles that are not parked on the car park, you had no right to request the keeper details from the DVLA. I will be making a complaint to the DVLA about this serious breach of the KADOE rules.

As you have breached the KADOE rules, you have also breached my GDPR and I will not hesitate to follow this up should you not cancel the PCN and issue an apology. As there is no keeper liability, therefore, liability cannot flow from the driver to the keeper and so, is an automatic win at POPLA. Please cancel the notice or issue a POPLA code at which point you will auto withdraw.
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #6 on: »
I'd be minded to find out whether UKPC's authority to enforce parking on the site ends at the kerb before waxing lyrical about breaches of KADOE contracts and breaches of GDPR, otherwise it might end up looking like ill-informed bluster.

The rest about PoFA etc. Is all good nevertheless.
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: DWMB2 on May 17, 2024, 05:30:33 pm
I'd be minded to find out whether UKPC's authority to enforce parking on the site ends at the kerb before waxing lyrical about breaches of KADOE contracts and breaches of GDPR, otherwise it might end up looking like ill-informed bluster.
Whilst I would agree that it is better to get that information, I would wager that you would be unsuccessful. UKPC are not going to bother digging out the detail of their contract at this stage. They will only produce that if it went to court and I can guarantee that they would discontinue before it ever went that far.

Whilst it may be "bluster", it puts them on notice that they are not dealing with low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree. If their contract does allow them to issue PCNs to vehicles beyond the kerb, then they would hopefully, but also I doubt it, respond with that evidence. If they don't, let them provide a POPLA code and proceed to Plan C.
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #8 on: »
My apprehension about making claims that could turn out to be false is, whilst it doesn't mark you down as low Hanging fruit, it does arguably mark you down as someone who's liable to going in all guns blazing when not in full possession of the facts.

My personal preference would be to appeal based on the facts that are known to be true, and they can be put to proof around the site boundary at POPLA.

Appreciate this may be a case of personal styles of approach.
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #9 on: »
Unfortunately, they are not likely to produce a contract for POPLA. They will produce a witness statement that says the contract is valid and POPLA will accept that as enough proof that there is a contract in place.

Either way, at this stage with a Plan B appeal, I don’t think it will do any damage whether we don’t have all the precise facts about the boundary of the UKPC contract. Let them come up with an answer and they either cancel it or issue a rejection with a POPLA code for Plan C.
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #10 on: »
Thank you both. I will go ahead and appeal using the wording above. My hope is by going all guns blazing, they just cancel it at once. I will report back whatever the response.
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #11 on: »
I've seen stranger things happen, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. UKPC can be a stubborn bunch, and usualy go as far as issuing court claims (which soon go away when defended).

Also, if you claim in your appeal that you're going to do various things (such as complain to the DVLA), then I'd personally recommend you follow up on those claims, to avoid being seen as someone who makes empty threats.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 12:42:02 pm by DWMB2 »
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #12 on: »
Got a letter from UKPC today. I'm not sure if this is in reply to the appeal, or just an automatic letter posted after a number of days:

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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #13 on: »
It says "to assist us in making a decision..." so no reply needed I guess. Especially that in the appeal I mentioned the driver details will not be revealed. It sounds like a automatic letter they send 'hoping' to get the driver's details.
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Re: UKPC - Motorcycle parked outside bay - Bell Green Retail Park, London
« Reply #14 on: »
Ignore. Wait for their rejection and a POPLA code.

Personally, I'd respond with the following, but that's just me toying with them:

Quote
Please stop wasting both our time. The level of intellectual malnourishment evidenced in your letter requesting that, as the keeper, I should provide UKPC with the drivers details is nothing short of embarrassing.

As the keeper, I am under no legal obligation to identify the driver and I shall not be doing so. The fact that UKPC is unaware of why the NtK is not fully compliant with PoFA and therefore incapable of holding the keeper liable, just goes to prove my point about the intellectual capability of whoever in UKPCs appeals department decided to send the letter in the first place.

Just get on with it, reject my appeal and give me a POPLA code where I will point out UKPCs failure to be able to hold the keeper liable.
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