Author Topic: Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice  (Read 3407 times)

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billybob47

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« on: July 24, 2024, 05:14:22 pm »
Don't mean to intrude on another persons thread but I came and made an account to ask the exact same questions re: what to tick when asked what the appeal reason is and to ensure the template is correct. Glad this thread came up lol.

I have three questions though:

- Doesn't this mean you could theoretically constantly use the drop-off spot without paying, and then send the same template?

- I received mine on the 24th (today), "Date of issue of this notice" is stated as 12th of July, and the alleged contravention took place on the 6th of July. As it's been more than 14 days, would that already render the Parking Charge Notice invalid? (or does that not apply to PCN's of this type?)
I mean, even if I was to admit to who the driver was at the time, I've only got 4 days to pay before the price increases to the full £80 according to their portal...

- Could APCOA ever change their parking structure to make this properly enforceable?

thank you all for your help, I'm very grateful. ;D

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b789

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Re: Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2024, 05:28:38 pm »
In theory, you need never pay APCOA for dropping off at LHR or NCP at LGW. I have used the T2 drop-off several times and never paid the Rip-off £5 fee. I simply wait for the NtK and respond with this:

Quote
I am the registered keeper. APCOA cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, APCOA will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Heathrow Airport is not 'relevant land'.

If Heathrow Airport wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because APCOA is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for APCOA's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and APCOA has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. APCOA have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Works every time. This will be their standard response:

Quote
Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the above-mentioned Parking Charge Notice.

In your appeal you have explained that you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and declined the invitation to provide us with the full name and address of the driver.

On this occasion, we will waiver this PCN as a goodwill gesture, but must inform you that the terms and conditions in this location advise the driver that they must pay for each visit to the site. Signage is displayed at the approach to this drop off area, along the location and upon exit, advising all motorists that a payment to use the drop off area is required to be made online or by phone. As stated above, the terms and conditions of using the drop-off zones are displayed by way of clear signage. It is the responsibility of the motorist to read and comply with the signage on site

I don't know if the £5 fee goes to the landowner and whether APCOA make their money form all the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that know no better and pay up when invoiced. Either way, they are raking in.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

DWMB2

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Re: Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2024, 05:35:53 pm »
I've split this topic so that the other poster's thread is not derailed by questions unrelated to his case.

- Doesn't this mean you could theoretically constantly use the drop-off spot without paying, and then send the same template?
In theory yes, although I would argue that misuse of private car parks is what causes businesses to hire these awful parking companies in the first place, so deliberate misuse indirectly supports their continued spread.

Also, if a single individual were building up significant numbers of parking charges, it may cause the company to focus their attentions somewhat - as an example, a company I was helping to fight charges from UKPC (they operated a large fleet, so inevitably got many tickets) found that after a series of successful appeals, UKPC started sending them bespoke notices that dealt with the shortcomings of their usual boilerplate.

As it's been more than 14 days, would that already render the Parking Charge Notice invalid? (or does that not apply to PCN's of this type?)
It wouldn't make it invalid, but delivering outside of the relevant period of 14 days would mean they cannot recover the charge from the registered keeper using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. It doesn't affect whether or not the driver might be liable, although if they don't know who that is, then tough for them. That said, with an issue date of 12th July, if sent by 1st class post, it will be presumed to have been delivered 2 working days later, unless the contrary can be proved - proving when you received it would be tricky.

- Could APCOA ever change their parking structure to make this properly enforceable?
They would struggle to make the charges recoverable from keepers, due to the drop off zone not being relevant land for the purposes of Schedule 4 of PoFA. From Heathrow's perspective, I don't know why they don't just install barriers like the drop off areas at Manchester, for example, which forces payment to be made before leaving. I've never driven to Heathrow, so I don't know if something like the road layout prevents this.

billybob47

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Re: Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2024, 06:03:00 pm »
In theory yes, although I would argue that misuse of private car parks is what causes businesses to hire these awful parking companies in the first place, so deliberate misuse indirectly supports their continued spread.

Also, if a single individual were building up significant numbers of parking charges, it may cause the company to focus their attentions somewhat - as an example, a company I was helping to fight charges from UKPC (they operated a large fleet, so inevitably got many tickets) found that after a series of successful appeals, UKPC started sending them bespoke notices that dealt with the shortcomings of their usual boilerplate.

Yeah I had a feeling that would be the case.


It wouldn't make it invalid, but delivering outside of the relevant period of 14 days would mean they cannot recover the charge from the registered keeper using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. It doesn't affect whether or not the driver might be liable, although if they don't know who that is, then tough for them. That said, with an issue date of 12th July, if sent by 1st class post, it will be presumed to have been delivered 2 working days later, unless the contrary can be proved - proving when you received it would be tricky.

Ah, right. I thought they'd just send the letter late so you'd have to fork up the whole amount, but fair enough.


They would struggle to make the charges recoverable from keepers, due to the drop off zone not being relevant land for the purposes of Schedule 4 of PoFA. From Heathrow's perspective, I don't know why they don't just install barriers like the drop off areas at Manchester, for example, which forces payment to be made before leaving. I've never driven to Heathrow, so I don't know if something like the road layout prevents this.


Having barriers would probably cause a lot of traffic to be honest, but a part of me feels like these things are made to be as inefficient and forgetful as possible to ensure they can get people through fines. Like, take the dart charge for example. Too many cars coming through and nowhere to stop, so having a camera take the drivers' plate and make them pay later (with a free autopay system!) makes sense. The way APCOA do it at Heathrow does not.
They could easily have machines to pay before you leave and an online portal in case the machines are broken.

*edited to fix how badly worded the last paragraph was.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 06:06:38 pm by billybob47 »

billybob47

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Re: Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2024, 06:05:29 pm »
In theory, you need never pay APCOA for dropping off at LHR or NCP at LGW. I have used the T2 drop-off several times and never paid the Rip-off £5 fee. I simply wait for the NtK and respond with this:

Quote
I am the registered keeper. APCOA cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, APCOA will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Heathrow Airport is not 'relevant land'.

If Heathrow Airport wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because APCOA is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for APCOA's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and APCOA has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. APCOA have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Works every time. This will be their standard response:

Quote
Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the above-mentioned Parking Charge Notice.

In your appeal you have explained that you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and declined the invitation to provide us with the full name and address of the driver.

On this occasion, we will waiver this PCN as a goodwill gesture, but must inform you that the terms and conditions in this location advise the driver that they must pay for each visit to the site. Signage is displayed at the approach to this drop off area, along the location and upon exit, advising all motorists that a payment to use the drop off area is required to be made online or by phone. As stated above, the terms and conditions of using the drop-off zones are displayed by way of clear signage. It is the responsibility of the motorist to read and comply with the signage on site

I don't know if the £5 fee goes to the landowner and whether APCOA make their money form all the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that know no better and pay up when invoiced. Either way, they are raking in.

Sounds good to me. I only use this place a few times a year so hopefully they won't build up a case on me but I'll gladly not pay for that then.


As you've mentioned, they probably make money on all the people who just see "fee - i need to pay" (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do)

DWMB2

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Re: Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2024, 06:14:41 pm »
As you've mentioned, they probably make money on all the people who just see "fee - i need to pay" (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do)
Not only a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but in theory, a correct response in law. I realise that there are all sorts of other issues with the drop off zones, including quality and prominence of signage etc., but let's for the sake of argument pretend the signage is good and all is in order... If a driver enters a private car park that levies a tariff for parking, he enters a binding contract to do pay that tariff, and is liable to a parking charge if he does not.

That is the principle on which parking charges are based. In many cases, there are deficiencies that provide a valid defence to either the driver or keeper, depending on the circumstances, but not 100% of the time, so take care when parking elsewhere!

b789

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2024, 06:28:02 pm »
It is the principle of having to pay to drop off a passenger at the terminal that is wrong. I travel frequently to the USA and at one of the busiest airports in the world, Atlanta and also at JFK, MIA, LAX and other airports, all busier and bigger than LHR, LGW, STN or MAN and no one pays to drop someone off at one of the multitude of terminals. (7 terminals at ATL).

When I mention to anyone at any of those airports that the sheeple in the UK have to pay a premium to simply drop someone off at the terminal, they usually shriek with laughter and consider anyone forced to pay to be of unsound mind.

When dropping off at LHR or LGW, no contract is entered into as there the charge for breaching the non-contract is not adequately brought to the attention of the driver. The fee is there but not the charge for breach of the terms which also, are not adequately brought to the drivers attention.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2024, 06:30:35 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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DWMB2

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2024, 06:31:05 pm »
I wasn't passing comment on whether a charge to drop off is reasonable, more a general comment on the legal mechanism by which private parking charges exist.

billybob47

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2024, 01:22:19 pm »
Just wanted to say (for whoever may see this) that thanks to your template my PCN has been cancelled.
Thanks for your work guys! :)
Means a lot, seriously.

b789

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2024, 01:26:23 pm »
Nothing unexpected. You probably got the “out of the goodwill of our hearts we will cancel the PCN this time. In future do not be a naught boy and make sure you pay us next time”, without mentioning the fact that they could not pursue you as the keeper anyway.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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DWMB2

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2024, 02:50:47 pm »
They're always brimming with 'goodwill' when they realise they can't recover the charge...

H C Andersen

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Re: APCOA Heathrow drop off parking charge notice
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2024, 05:11:26 pm »
Doesn't this mean you could theoretically constantly use the drop-off spot without paying, and then send the same template?

Depends on who 'you' is! In my experience the vast majority of drop-offs at my local airport (Gatwick) are made by private hire vehicles. The driver may or may not be the registered keeper and they may work for a private hire operator.

Given that both are licensed and (certainly as far as Crawley BC licensing conditions go) the stress placed on 'fit and proper person' shouts at you from every page and, irrespective of whether if they wanted to play hard-ball they could save a fiver(which they recover from passengers anyway and which IMO does NOT place them at a competitive disadvantage), why would they bother? It's their livelihood and puts bread on the table.

So, for the relative few who aren't subject to such real or imaginary pressures who might enjoy the thrill of the - very short- chase and putting one over on the operator, go on and drop-off. Even do it for fun and pick up the passenger a bit further down and go round again!

APCOA and NCP get all the money they need from licensed drivers and are happy to waiver'(aaagh*) charges when challenged by the few.

*- ironic and a shame that the licensing process which requires drivers to have a grasp of English doesn't apply to operators!