Author Topic: PPS Ltd PCN – Parked on "private land"(?) – Holloway Street, Hounslow  (Read 1681 times)

0 Members and 352 Guests are viewing this topic.

Mentioning anything about waiting for your daughter who didn’t show up on time is a waste of your time and effort. POPLA will not consider ANY mitigation. Forget it.


If you want a POPLA assessor to consider the fact that there cannot be any contract formed by signs that are “forbidding” then you need to lead them by the nose. Do a bit of research on what is required in order for a contract by conduct to be valid. Whilst some may say that POPLA will not consider it, they are wrong. The assessor has to follow what the law says. Don’t just say it. Find the relevant law, especially anything under the CRA.

Even if POPLA did not consider whether a forbidding sign can form a contract, a judge most certainly will.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Lost this one, lads. Don't really feel like spending more time on this, even if it would have a decent chance in court.

Just a bit disappointed about POPLA's decision, given how identical it was that was to another case. Doesn't feel very fair. :(

Regardless, really appreciate the time you all took to look into this for me.

-----------------------

Assessor summary of your case
The appellant has raised the following grounds of appeal: • They could not drop off their daughter outside the Flip Out venue, so they dropped her off at the end of Matisse Road. • They visited McDonalds and the nearby Prince Regent Road until it was time to collect their daughter however, she was not where they agreed to meet and eventually received a phone call to say that their daughter was running late. • The onsite warden took photographs of the vehicle after the phone call, and their daughter returned to the vehicle around two minutes after the images were taken. They left the site at this point. • They believed they were on a public highway and there were no markings to indicate they were on private land. • The vehicle brake lights were on, as can be seen in the contravention photographs and they did not cause obstruction whilst on the site. In their comments to the parking operator’s evidence, the appellant has reiterated their grounds for appeal in further detail, saying that the roadway is Matisse Road and not Holloway Street and the site map supplied the parking operator has the incorrect roadway name, with the appellant’s vehicle incorrectly marked on this site map. The appellant has also reiterated that no images have been provided to show road markings to indicate where the public highway ends and where the private land begins. The appellant comments further that they were only on the site for two minutes, which is less than the five-minute guideline for motorists to give due consideration of their situation. The appellant has provided the following evidence to support their appeal: • A screenshot of their phone log to show calls with their daughter. • A screenshot of the Royal Mail website. • Two screenshots of their detailed movements on the date in question. • A photograph of the vehicle, showing the brake lights are on. • A photograph of the front of the vehicle on the site. • A screenshot of the google map image showing Matisse Road.

Assessor supporting rational for decision
When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The parking operator has provided photographs of the signs, stating that the site is private land and no parking is permitted. The signs also state that a £100 PCN will be issued to any motorist who breaches the terms and conditions. Having considered the photographic images provided by the parking operator, the vehicle stayed on a site where parking was not permitted and therefore, the PCN has been issued. As part of their comments to the parking operator’s case file, the appellant has highlighted that they were on the site for less than the five-minute consideration period, which the parking operator’s images support. The British Parking Association (BPA) has a code of practice, which sets the standards for its parking operators. The appellant is correct that section 13.1 of the Code requires parking operators to allow the driver a period of five minutes to read the signage and decide if they are going to stay or go if the site is one where parking is permitted. Section 13.4 of the Code goes on to say that unauthorised motorists will not be entitled to the minimum time period of 5 minutes for a consideration period in spaces designated for specific users or where parking is not allowed. I have considered the appellant’s photographs of the vehicle and whilst I do not dispute they were picking up their daughter, as they have parked on a site where parking is not permitted, a consideration period does not apply. I acknowledge the appellant says that there were no road markings to indicate parking was not permitted. In their comments to the parking operator’s case file, the appellant has raised that they were at Matisse Road and not Holloway Street, and the site map does not accurately show where they were parked. The British Parking Association (BPA)’s code of practice sets the standards by which its members must abide by. Section 19.1 of the Code of Practice states that signs must be provided to make it easy for motorists to find out what the terms and conditions are. Section 19.3 continues that signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. In its evidence, the parking operator has provided photographs of the onsite signs, stating that the site is private land, where parking is not permitted and the PCN fee is prominently displayed. The site map shows me that 12 signs are displayed across the car park, which is suitable considering the layout of the site. The signs are positioned at a height as to not be obstructed by vehicles, which makes them easy to read I have reviewed the appellant’s screenshots and whilst I note they believe they were parked elsewhere, the parking operator’s images show me three signs are displayed within close proximity to where the vehicle was parked, including one directly next to the vehicle. I can also see from the parking operator images and site map that the appellant was parked on the pedestrian crossing at the site. As such, it is clear the appellant was parked on the parking operator’s land. Whilst I appreciate there are no road markings to indicate parking is not permitted, there is no requirement for the landowner or the parking operator to apply road markings on a car park. I would also like to highlight that the vehicle was parked on top of a zebra crossing, which is to be used by pedestrians only. I am satisfied from the evidence provided by the parking operator that the signage is conspicuous and clearly outlines the terms of parking on the site. I am satisfied the motorist was afforded ample opportunity to review the terms. In their comments to the parking operator’s evidence, the appellant has reiterated their grounds for appeal in further detail. Whilst I appreciate the appellant’s extensive comments, I have already addressed these grounds as part of my assessment. POPLA’s role is to assess if the parking operator has issued the charge in accordance with the conditions of the contract. As the terms and conditions of the car park have not been met, I conclude that the parking operator has issued the PCN correctly, and the appeal is refused.

Give up if you feel you must but a failed POPLA appeal has no bearing on any subsequent action. It is your money and if you feel that finding the scammers is better value for you, then it is your choice.

However, the POPLA assessor did not consider your point about "the appellant has raised that they were at Matisse Road and not Holloway Street, and the site map does not accurately show where they were parked." It has simply not been answered or rebutted. Personally, I would complain to POPLA about this, even though it will not make them change their decision.

Just so I can understand, had you already admitted to being both the keeper and the driver? Did you raise all the points about PoFA I noted early on? They don't seem to have been raised from what I can see of the assessors musings.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

I know, the street name thing really rankles, as it was the central point

I felt I had to admit to being the driver, as the POPLA asked for a plain English description of the events, and it felt unnatural to mention "the driver" in the third person all the time.

Afraid I can't remember how much PoFA stuff I mentioned - maybe not at all, it didn't feel very relevant to my case, and I thought I had several other stronger planks of argument to rely on.

If I wanted to persevere, what's the next step? Wait until they take me to court, or do I instigate action?


By admitting to being the driver, all PoFA arguments went out the window. The whole point of PoFA is to transfer liability from the driver to the keeper if the drivers identity is not known (which it wasn't until you gave that information).

That is why we always tell victims to never reveal the identity of the driver. There is no legal obligation to identify the driver. This is not criminal action where the police have powers to prosecute if the drivers identity is not revealed. This is a matter of civil law and an unregulated private parking company is not an authority that has any powers to insist that the keeper must reveal the drivers identity. However, that line has been blown out of the water.

If you are prepared to "persevere", the next steps are as follows:

You will have to weather a storm of final demands and debt collector letters. You can safely ignore these as they are just designed to frighten the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into capitulating and paying into their scam. They will include scary words like "CCJ" and "bailiffs" but they are powerless to do anything.

After the debt collector threats they may decide to try and scare you with a Letter of Claim (LoC) before county court action. Again, this is designed to shake the gullible tree and see what fruit comes off. Whether you respond to an LoC or not, they will more likely than not, if they've come this far, issue a county court claim. If a claim is issued, it cannot be ignored. You would have to Acknowledge Service of the claim (AoS) and then submit a defence to the claim.

We have a template for the defence and only requires you to edit on one paragraph whether you admit to being the driver as well as the keeper (which you have already done), and for you to provide an answer to the Particulars of the Claim (PoC). Invariably, the PoC are woefully inadequate and very often do not even state the actual breach of contract that brought the claim in the first place.

There is also a very good likelihood that they will not take this any further than the debt collector stage. They have 6 years from the date of the parking event to file a claim.

If a claim is filed, depending on who they use to file it, there is every chance that if robustly defended using the template defence that they will eventually discontinue as, more often than not, they do not want to get a spanking from the judge for their flawed claim. It will all depend on which roboclaim solicitor they use.

So, they may or they may not take it all the way to a claim. If they do, it is easily defended and even if you were to lose the claim in court, you would pay less than the claim itself as they will have added fake DRA/damages fees which are not allowed in a small claims hearing. It would probably be in the region of around £200 and if it was paid within 30 days of judgment, there would be no CCJ on your credit record. That is a worst case scenario.

The choice is yours but you need to understand that it is a matter of principle whether you are happy to fund these scammers or not. The ball is now in your court.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 02:26:43 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Hi gang,

So... the debt collection letter came today - again noting the wrong street on it.

Do I ignore or reply?

Thanks as always!

Debt collectors are only interested in collecting payment. There is no point engaging with them. File and ignore.

again noting the wrong street on it.

I'm baffled why you still think this has any relevance at all?

You know where you were, you know the charge applies to that place, it provides no defence (NONE) to the driver at all.

It's like ordering a printer online and the invoice saying plotter, you still owe that sum demanded for the printer you ordered and would know that and have to pay.

Had you not identified yourself as the driver, then you as the keeper would have had a defence as the keeper would not know where the parking event occurred, but you lost the use of that by telling them you were the driver.

So forget it - and as for it being your central point for POPLA, it wasn't, it was a nullity.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

The POPLA appeals page requires you to give details of the incident, and that includes details of who did what.

Re: the street, I believe the law regarding this requires that the time and location are marked on the PCN. But if the location is wrong then how can the charge apply? It's like saying "We're charging you for parking in Doncaster even though the bill says Sheffield"?

Re: the street, I believe the law regarding this requires that the time and location are marked on the PCN. But if the location is wrong then how can the charge apply? It's like saying "We're charging you for parking in Doncaster even though the bill says Sheffield"?
Which law? If they are seeking to hold the registered keeper liable using Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, then that requires them to specify the relevant land. If the driver has been revealed, then PoFA is no longer of relevance.

As The Rookie notes above, where the driver has been revealed it essentially becomes an error on an invoice - such an error does not automatically render the invoice unrecoverable. There are stronger defence points to focus on.