Author Topic: PCN received despite not staying in car park  (Read 1514 times)

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PCN received despite not staying in car park
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Hi

My mum and dad went into an NCP car park on 16 December '24

They went to ticket machine and waited in line for someone to unsuccessfully pay for a ticket.

When it was their turn, they realised the ticket was not accepting cash or card payment, so Dad then tried to download the app to pay but failed as no reception. He then returned to the car to try with my Mum's phone but had the same issue. They couldn't figure out how else to pay so got in the car and went and parked somewhere else. This whole process took 17 minutes.. they are quite elderly and don't move/ do things quickly which has slowed the process down.

They have now received a PCN from NCP.

Please can you advise if they have grounds for appeal and, if so, what wording they should use?
They are quite elderly so not moving so quickly to and from things

Many thanks

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« Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 02:44:16 pm by beano5892 »

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Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #1 on: »
I've removed those attachments - you might want to hide your mum's name and address before re-uploading.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice
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Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #2 on: »
First we need to see the PPN with personal details redacted but leave times and dates.

There have been a number of these PPN`s over too long to take to pay and usually they are using the 5 minutes.

A couple of these PPN`s have hit the media and one they took to court in Sheffield was dismissed by the judge.

Also, the BPA and IPA are looking at possible altering this.  We`ll wait and see on this.
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Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #3 on: »
First we need to see the PPN with personal details redacted but leave times and dates.

There have been a number of these PPN`s over too long to take to pay and usually they are using the 5 minutes.

A couple of these PPN`s have hit the media and one they took to court in Sheffield was dismissed by the judge.

Also, the BPA and IPA are looking at possible altering this.  We`ll wait and see on this.

Thanks for this.
I've redacted and re-uploaded.

I saw the Sheffield case.. she had loads for the same reason I believe!

I know about the 5 minute "rule" but my concern here is that the whole process took way longer than this, even though they were trying to pay the whole time. Without meaning to sound terrible, they don't move so quickly these days and it can take a while for them to use their phone/ download apps etc so I just think it's grossly unfair but don't know how best to appeal.

Look forward to getting some advice/ feedback.
As always, thanks in advance


Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #4 on: »
Just to confirm - is your mum the registered keeper of the vehicle, with the V5C document in her name (i.e. not a financed/leased vehicle etc.)? If so, and this is the first notice received, then NCP have sent the notice too late to be able to recover the charge from the keeper, using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act. As such, they can only hold the driver liable, and they don't know who that is!

Your mother can therefore appeal online, as the keeper only, along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ________) for vehicle registration mark ____ ___, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act"). You have chosen not to issue a Notice to Keeper in accordance with The Act, and it is now too late for you to do so.

There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,


If appealing online, be careful there are no drop down/tick boxes that cause you to identify who was driving, and keep a close eye on your spam folder for their response. If they do not respond within 28 days, chase them.

If your mum struggles with tech, you can do it for her, but the appeal must be done in her name and address etc.

The arguments around time taken etc. are all perfectly valid, but the above is a much easier approach.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice
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Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #5 on: »
As above... you can do all the work but it MUST be in the Keepers name.

Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

If you use the suggested appeal above by @DWMB2, NCP will cancel the PCN.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #6 on: »
As above... you can do all the work but it MUST be in the Keepers name.

Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

If you use the suggested appeal above by @DWMB2, NCP will cancel the PCN.

Hi there

Thanks for this. I've forwarded your replies to my parents, but I'm just a little concerned that the PCN actually doesn't fall under PoFA as there is no mention of PoFA on the PCN and I thought (probably mistakenly!) that the PCN had to state that it was being issued under PoFA otherwise it isn't and then the 14 day period doesn't apply .. it jumps to 7 months? Or is it PoFA beacuse they've gone to DVLA to get keepers name and are chasing the keeper not the driver so it therefore slips into PoFA.

Dad looked on Citizens Advice website and they said that it wasn't PoFA if no mention and so he doesn't want to appeal unless he's sure!

Sorry for the questions and thanks in advance
« Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 08:18:49 pm by beano5892 »

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #7 on: »
This isn't the same as the issues with Excel parking and their punitive you must pay within 5 minute rule which I believe will be banned with an imminent update to the joint code of practice and just as well as it's nothing other than a trap. In this case the person stayed in car park for longer than the 5 minute consideration period and failed to pay. I think it's unlikely that will be changed any time soon although I think a minimum of a 10 minute consideration period would be more appropriate in car parks inviting people to park like this. 17 minutes is pushing it a bit.

If the PCN is not POFA compliant then that's the best grounds for appeal, do not name the driver. Not being POFA complaint works in your Dad's favour, he can't be held liable for the PCN as the vehicles keeper unless he admits driving and there's no legal reason why he should admit that. If the PCN was POFA complaint then your Dad could have been held liable even if he wasn't the driver unless he named the driver. So non POFA PCN is a get out of jail free. Use DWMB2 appeal word for word and that should kill it dead. The private parking company can't win in court so other than possibly some toothless letters there's nothing more they can do and they will know it, no point in wasting more money on something can't win.

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #8 on: »
17 minutes is pushing it a bit.
I could think of circumstances where 17 minutes could probably be reasonably argued, especially where you factor in entering the car park, finding a space, reading the signage, queuing at the payment machine, discovering it is not working, trying to download an app on 2 separate phones due to poor signal, giving up and driving back out again.

One would hope a reasonable judge would be amenable to such an argument, but thankfully in this case there'll be no need to test out that theory.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #9 on: »
A PCN does not have mention PoFA to be compliant. It only has to comply with the requirements of the Act.

The PCN being discussed here does NOT comply with all the requirements. As it does not fully comply with ALL the requirements, it is therefore NOT PoFA compliant and so the Keeper cannot be liable for the charge.

Don’t try to overthink it.

Never rely on the CAB to understand the nuances of the unregulated private parking industry. They are worse than useless when it comes to advising on these matters. They are well known to actually get people who follow their flawed advice into worse trouble.

We are experts on handling these matters and even advise the judiciary (well, I do) and other legal professionals. We are specialists.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #10 on: »
The appeal I suggested will almost certainly work. If it doesn't, POPLA will uphold the appeal.

You seem to have misunderstood what Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act does - it provides a mechanism for parking operators to hold the registered keeper of a vehicle liable for a charge owed by the driver, in situations where the operator does not know who was driving (which is pretty much always, unless the driver or the keeper tells them). The Act provides a range of conditions that the operator must comply with if they want to recover the charge from the keeper - one of those is that a notice must be delivered to them within 14 days. NCP haven't done this, and they therefore cannot recover the charge from the keeper. My suggested appeal points this out.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #11 on: »
Dear b789 and @DWMB@

Thanks so much for clarifying. You guys are the best - at helping but also explaining so that we understand.

I shall pass this on to my dad and he shall appeal on my mum's behalf.

I'll update when we here back.

Happy 2025

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #12 on: »
Make sure he follows the instructions carefully. The appeal is being submitted by the keeper, and he should be careful not to reveal who was driving.
Away from 29th March - 5th April
Posting for the first time? READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide | House Rules

Useful Links (for private parking charges):
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) Schedule 4 | Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #13 on: »
I've filled it in for my Mum ... double checked I ticked keeper not driver and did not disclose driver. Signed in her name. If there's a mistake, it's my fault!
Thanks again!

Re: PCN received despite not staying in car park
« Reply #14 on: »
@DWMB2 @b789 many thanks for this. I forgot to post that Mum's appeal was successful. Thanks for your help! :)
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