Author Topic: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors  (Read 1650 times)

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PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« on: »
I hope you can advise me on this.

I received a PCN from CPM on 30th Jan, 2024, at Traction Lane, Britannia Gate, Bedford.
I was offered a discount rate of 60 pounds, which I did not pay. 5 letters followed from Debt Recovery plus, of which I ignored them all. On October 11th, 2024, I received a Letter before claim (LBC) from Gladstone which I have not responded to. There was no clear sign or double yellow line at the spot in which I parked at.

Any guidance on what steps to take would be appreciated.

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« Last Edit: November 10, 2024, 08:24:41 pm by DWMB2 »

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Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #1 on: »
Presumably you are the registered keeper? The PCN clearly says the driver is liable. There is nothing to say you have to name the driver.

The debt collectors letters can be safely ignored, they are click-bit to bully you into paying.Don't reply to anything until others have been along to give you better advice.
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #2 on: »
Presumably you are the registered keeper? The PCN clearly says the driver is liable. There is nothing to say you have to name the driver.

The debt collectors letters can be safely ignored, they are click-bit to bully you into paying.Don't reply to anything until others have been along to give you better advice.

The PCN is, in essence, PoFA compliant which measures even if the driver is unknown, the Keeper can be held liable for the charge. However, there is an element in the Notice to Keeper (NtK) that is not fully compliant with PoFA.

The NtK mentions that the period of parking relates to the "period immediately preceding the incident time stated above". They have stated a time on the NtK but the evidential photos are not timestamped. There have been cases thrown out in court for this failure.

You still have a few days to respond to the Letter of Claim (LoC) from Gladstones. I suggest you email a letter to them with the following:

Quote
Dear Gladstones Solicitors,

Re: Letter of Claim dated 11th October 2024

I refer to your letter of claim.

I confirm that my address for service for the time being, assuming you don’t faff about and delay any claim, is as follows, and any older address you may hold must be erased from your records:

[MY ADDRESS]

The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

I note that the amount being claimed has increased by a hugely exaggerated amount which the Government called “extorting money from motorists.” Don’t send me your usual blather about that.

I also wish to highlight that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) fails to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, which is essential for holding the keeper liable when the driver has not been identified. The NtK does not accurately state the “period of parking” as required by PoFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(a) and 9(2)(b). Only a single time of 12:44 is mentioned, and the evidential photos provided lack date and timestamps, failing to establish a specific “period of parking.” Therefore, as the driver has not been identified, I, as the keeper, cannot be held liable for the charge.

I have two questions, and under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers:

Am I to understand that the additional £70 represents what you lot dress up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?

With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[Your Contact Information]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #3 on: »
Thank you for your suggestions.

Please see below reply from Gladstone Solicitor. I will appreciate your advise/suggestion on this matter:

==

Thank you for your correspondence and apologies for the delay in responding.

 

Your comments are noted however, the Notice to Keeper was sent in accordance with POFA. The period of parking is not applicable as the vehicle was parked when no parking is permitted however, the time of the charge is provided.

 

The charge sought is industry standard and is set at a rate so as to suitably satisfy our client's legitimate interest. In the case of ParkingEye v Beavis 2015 it was held that an £85.00 charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. The Accredited Trade Associations of which parking operators must be a member in order to apply for DVLA data prescribe a maximum charge of £100 and our client's charges are within this level. 

 

The decision of the Supreme Court also made it clear that the charges are not penal nor do they have to be reflective of the parking operator's loss.   

 

We refer you to the IPC code of practice Part E Schedule 5. This confirms the following: 

 

‘Parking charges must not exceed £100 unless agreed in advance with the IPC. Where there is a prospect of additional charges, reference should be made to this where appropriate on the signage and/or other documentation. Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue a reasonable sum may be added. This sum must not exceed £70 (inclusive of VAT where applicable) unless Court Proceedings have been initiated.’


1. The Amount Due/ Debt includes £70.00 claimed by our Client for the time/resources spent facilitating the recovery of the unpaid parking charge notice(s) pursuant to its ATA’s Code of Practice and the Terms and Conditions of the Contract, which was entered into upon the driver of the vehicle entering the Relevant Land. The amount is a pre-determined and nominal contribution to our Client’s losses as a direct result of your non-payment. VAT is not applicable as the parking charge notice which was issued to you is a contractual charge.

 

2. Motorists can park on the site in accordance with the terms and conditions on the sign, without incurring a charge but to park without incurring a charge they may need to display a permit; purchase a pay and display ticket; become an authorised user, it is whatever the sign states. If a motorists wishes to park ‘as they please’ within reason, they can do so but pay a charge for this ‘privilege’, the charge is set out on the signs and by a motorist parking otherwise than in accordance with the signs they accept the charge at the point of parking and a valid contract is formed. The charge is due within 28 days of being incurred, if the charge remains unpaid after this date the contract the motorist entered into is breached and a debt is owed to our Client, they are then entitled to damages that have occurred as a result of the breach.

 

In absence of full payment within 14 days of this email we suggest you follow the steps on the Claim Form upon receipt of the same.

Payment can be made via bank transfer to the account detailed as follows:
Amount Due: £170.00

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #4 on: »
Just wait for them to issue the claim. When you receive the N1SDT Claim Form from the CNBC, post a copy of it here only redacting your personal info, the claim number, the vehicle VRM and the MCOL password. Leave everything else visible, especially the issue date and the Particulars of Claim (PoC).
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #5 on: »
Just to add... there is a persuasive appeals court decision that makes the point about "period of parking":

Brennan v Premier Parking Solutions (2023)

Other mods may wish to review it.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #6 on: »
That's an interesting read - the conclusion seems to be that the 'period of parking' need not necessarily specify the entire time a vehicle is on site, but does need to indicate a start and end time, with those times being sufficiently long enough to demonstrate a breach of the T&Cs on the site giving rise to a parking charge.

In my view, that seems like a fairly common sense reading of the regulations.

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #7 on: »
So, it would require a minimum time of at least the consideration period and we all know that that is not defined but shown as a "minimum". All very arguable in court and if necessary, wrapped around a wet halibut and slapped in the POPLA assessors face!
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks for your replies. Please See updates:

email received on Friday 17th Jan - email.pdf

Letter Before Claim - Individual.pdf
evidence.pdf

I will appreciate your advise on this matter. Thanks.

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Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #9 on: »
I can guarantee that when Gladrags issue the claim they will, as always, fail miserably due to their utter incompetence and breach CPR 16.4(1)(a) which means that the claim will be most likely struck out at allocation stage.

Irrespective, in the remote possibility that it ever proceeded to an actual hearing after they are forced to submit more detailed particulars of claim, they have not refuted and won't be able to refute the fact that the Keeper cannot be liable due to the failings with the NtK.

I wouldn't even bother with responding to the LoC and just wait for them to issue their defective N1SDT Claim Form from the CNBC.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #10 on: »
Have they provided any explanation as to why a second LoC has been issued?

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #11 on: »
Thanks so much for the prompt response. No they did not explain why a second LOC was issued.
I will update you once the claim form arrives. Thanks.

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #12 on: »
If you want to have some fun and mess with their own overinflated sense of self importance, you could send the following as a response to the latest LoC:

Quote
Subject: Response to Letter of Claim dated [17th January 2025]

Dear Gladstones Solicitors,

Re: Letter of Claim dated [17th January 2025]

I acknowledge receipt of yet another Letter of Claim.

Your firm failed to properly respond to my previous letter dated [date of previous response], in which I raised fundamental issues regarding your client's defective Notice to Keeper (NtK) and the unlawful £70 add-on. Instead of addressing these points, you issued a much delayed and inadequate response that failed to comply with the Pre-Action Protocol (PAP). Now, rather than progressing with your initial Letter of Claim, you have issued a fresh one—without explanation—demonstrating either incompetence or a deliberate attempt to frustrate due process.

To be clear:

1. Your client’s NtK does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, meaning they cannot hold the registered keeper liable. The alleged ‘time of the charge’ does not satisfy PoFA’s requirement to state a period of parking. As a supposed firm of professional legal representatives, you may wish to look up Scott Brennan v Premier Parking Solutions Ltd (2023) [H6DP632H], in which the appeal court found that failing to specify a period of parking invalidates Keeper liability under PoFA, as it does not meet the mandatory statutory requirements.

Your assertion that a period of parking is “not applicable” because parking was allegedly not permitted is legally baseless and contrary to established case law. However, given Gladstones’ reputation, I suspect your firm lacks either the capability or inclination to conduct proper legal research, instead relying on boilerplate responses that ignore key legal principles.

2. The £70 add-on is unlawful, unrecoverable, and an abuse of process. The Supreme Court case of ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] does not assist your client in this regard, and the Government has explicitly condemned these excessive charges as “extorting money from motorists.” The attempt to pass off this amount as a legitimate debt recovery cost is misleading, as courts have repeatedly dismissed such claims. The fact that your response merely quoted the outdated IPC Code of Practice, rather than any actual legal authority, only serves to highlight the weakness of your position.

3. Your response regarding the nature of the charge was contradictory and legally incoherent. Your client cannot simultaneously claim the sum as a contractual charge (where it would be VAT applicable) and as damages for breach of contract (where it would not be). Your failure to provide a clear legal basis for the alleged charge only reinforces the impression that your firm is attempting to dress up an unenforceable penalty as something more palatable to the courts.

Since you have now issued a new LoC, I require the following:

• A full explanation of why a second LoC has been issued instead of proceeding with the first one.

• Confirmation that your client will not attempt to claim the unlawful £70.

• A properly compliant response to my original PAP request, addressing each point properly instead of providing vague and legally dubious justifications.

Failure to provide a satisfactory response will be noted and brought to the court’s attention should you proceed with issuing a claim. Any such claim will be robustly defended, and I will seek to have it struck out as an abuse of process.

I suggest you take proper legal advice before sending me any further boilerplate threats.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
« Last Edit: January 29, 2025, 09:40:45 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #13 on: »
Please see reply received today after over 3 months. They did not even address any of the points from the last correspondence you advised I send to them.

Note the status on their online portal says Post-Litigation.

==

We write regarding the above matter. 

 

Our Client's position has been made clear in previous correspondence.


Payment is required on or before the xx May 2025 to avoid further action. Please make payment to the details below:


Reference xxxx

The outstanding amount is £170.00

Failure to make payment will result in the issue of legal proceedings without further recourse to you. 


Without wishing to be discourteous, we will not accept any further submissions from you.

Re: PCN & LBC from Gladstones Solicitors
« Reply #14 on: »
The reply you’ve received is a textbook example of bullying via bluff — not only have they ignored your previous rebuttal, but they've also refused to engage with pre-action protocol duties, while misrepresenting the status of the claim.

Given that:

• They did not address any of your formal questions raised under the PAP;
• Their previous LoC expired with no claim issued;
• They’ve now unilaterally declared the matter “post-litigation” (without a claim being served); and
• They state they will not “accept any further submissions”;

It is clear they are either stalling, incapable of progressing a claim competently, or hoping to intimidate you into paying without legal justification.

Respond with the following — primarily for your records and for the court, should they attempt to proceed with a claim:

Quote
Subject: Re: Alleged PCN – Reference [XXXX]

Dear Gladstones Solicitors,

I note your latest email dated [insert date], received more than three months after your second Letter of Claim dated 17th January 2025.

It is regrettable – albeit unsurprising – that you have chosen not to address any of the legally valid points raised in my detailed and properly framed response. Instead, you have responded with vague threats, an arbitrary deadline, and the legally meaningless statement that the matter is now “post-litigation,” despite the fact that no claim has been issued.

To be absolutely clear for the record:

• You failed to follow the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims. I raised specific and reasonable questions regarding the alleged charge, the misapplication of the £70 add-on, and your client’s defective Notice to Keeper. These have not been answered.
• The matter cannot be considered “post-litigation” when no claim has been filed, nor have any Particulars of Claim been served.
• Your refusal to accept further submissions is not only discourteous, it is a clear breach of the spirit and letter of the PAP and CPR 1.1, which require parties to engage in good faith and attempt to resolve disputes without court involvement.

These points are directly relevant to whether any claim has merit and must be addressed before any proceedings are issued.

Your refusal to engage, combined with your vague and baseless “post-litigation” claim (despite no proceedings being issued), suggests a deliberate attempt to intimidate and frustrate the proper process. If you continue to disregard your professional and procedural obligations, I will have no hesitation in submitting a formal complaint to the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA), citing breaches of the SRA Code of Conduct and misuse of the pre-action process, particularly:

• Paragraph 1.2: acting with integrity
• Paragraph 2.2: not misleading or taking unfair advantage
• Paragraph 3.1: ensuring proper standard of client service, including compliance with protocols
• Paragraph 1.4: not abusing their position by threatening litigation improperly

Should your client issue proceedings, I will not only defend the claim in full but will also bring your conduct to the court’s attention as unreasonable under CPR 27.14(2)(g), particularly your repeated failure to engage with substantive points and your abuse of the pre-action process.

As always, I remain open to a proper and reasoned response, should you ever wish to comply with your professional obligations.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain