Author Topic: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay  (Read 317 times)

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Sunshineoncov

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2024, 12:59:40 pm »
I just received an email response from Premier Parking.
Any advice on how to respond?


H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2024, 03:43:29 pm »
IMO, they make a good point (but not one which is mainstream here!).

The NTK is not an invoice to the NTK. Nowhere does it say that the keeper IS being held liable and must pay. Instead a NTK does several things:

1. It notifies the keeper that in the creditor's opinion the driver is liable for a parking charge;
2. It notifies the keeper that the driver's details are not known;
3. It invites the keeper to pay;
3. It warns the keeper that the creditor reserves the right to hold the keeper liable ..at some stage in the future, BUT NOT NOW.

So, you telling them you weren't the driver isn't an 'appeal' as such, after all what were you appealing against e.g. how could you appeal the parking charge if you weren't the driver and why would you even want to etc. etc?

And as regards IAS, this is similarly nonsense because as keeper you aren't liable unless the creditor seeks to invoke the right they say they have and then again you would only challenge this in court, not to IAS. So, in effect all IAS is being asked to do is to 'injunct' the creditor i.e. to desist from any FUTURE attempt to hold the keeper liable, but they would be free to pursue the driver.

So, in response to their reply you could say:
Thank you for ********. You thought your challenge was clear but for the avoidance of doubt:
1. You were not the driver and have no knowledge or view as to whether they might be liable to the operator for a parking charge;
2. However, as keeper you are advising the operator that their Notice to Keeper does not comply with the mandatory requirements of PoFA(see below) and consequently they would not have a legal right to seek to hold the keeper liable for the parking charge. This is the substantive point of your appeal;
3. If the operator does not accept that they have not met the legal test to hold the keeper liable, then you would request the IAS to instruct them in this regard, in effect to injunct you against any further action against the keeper. 

The Notice to Keeper's non-compliance arises as follows:
*****
*****
*****

Just my thoughts!

DWMB2

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2024, 04:00:53 pm »
The NTK is not an invoice to the NTK.
What?

The Notice to Keeper's non-compliance arises as follows:
*****
*****
*****

Just my thoughts!
I agree that making clear the reason the notice doesn't comply is important in this case.

The template used for the initial appeal is one that I recommend in cases where the parking operator is choosing not to hold the keeper liable, but wouldn't have been one I'd have recommended here (alas, the appeal was sent by the OP without a draft being shared with us first). It was less appropriate in this case, because Premier Park are of the view that they have complied with PoFA, so any appeal claiming they have not should clearly set out why.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2024, 04:26:40 pm »
Sorry, my wrong spelling, a NTK is not an invoice to the keeper (because it doesn't demand payment from them and doesn't even state that a payment would be demanded, instead it says 'if A, B, C then we have the right to recover the unpaid charge from the keeper').

If and when they would seek to invoke such a right are unknowns.

andy_foster

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2024, 08:47:51 pm »
Looking at this in the round, when does the keeper's "right" to appeal start and end?

I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2024, 09:01:13 am »
Exactly.

The rigid procedural steps of IAS are an invention of the industry, and sit outside PoFA whose only references are*:

and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available

which is then expanded with:

the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—

(a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and


(b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

Waffly doesn't get near describing these references IMO.

PoFA doesn't prescribe, it describes, and not very well either IMO.

*- repeated for a NTD and NTK where a NTD has been issued.

excessive exegetical sophistication, will not win the day IMO.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 09:05:28 am by H C Andersen »

andy_foster

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2024, 11:13:01 am »
What has the IAS's procedures got to do with the keeper appealing a ticket to a BPA member?
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2024, 01:27:46 pm »


Independent Adjudication/Arbitration (service) (IAS) as referred to in PoFA.

b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

POPLA or whatever are simply inventions of ATAs.

The OP has already engaged with 'procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it' and look what's happened. The creditor's no idea what constitutes an 'appeal' as I wrote previously.

OP, I've given you a form of words for a reply to the creditor's response which you're free to use or not, amended or not.

This is an unregulated and, as far as the law is concerned, virtually unstructured procedure



Sunshineoncov

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2024, 04:31:28 pm »
Thank you for the response. The reply that is suggested starts with saying I was not the driver. Just to clarify, I am appealing on the behalf of the driver who is also the registered keeper. I wrote the appeal to PP signed in their name as they were just going to pay the charge.
I will appeal again in their name so I can’t state that I/he wasn’t the driver.  The advice generally is to not reveal who the driver is I believe.

Sunshineoncov

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2024, 04:36:51 pm »
My draft response to appeal

I thought the challenge was clear but for the avoidance of doubt:
1. I have no knowledge or view as to whether I might be liable to the operator for a parking charge;
2. However, as keeper i am advising premier parking that your Notice to Keeper does not comply with the mandatory requirements of PoFA and consequently they would not have a legal right to seek to hold the keeper liable for the parking charge.
3. If premier parking does not accept that they have not met the legal test to hold the keeper liable, then i would request the IAS to instruct them in this regard, in effect to injunct me against any further action against the keeper.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2024, 09:45:16 am »
Don't forget the intro and normal courtesies!

Dear Sir,

Re: PCN *******; VRM ********; Date of Issue ******

I refer to my initial appeal and your reply dated ***** in response to which I would reply as follows:

1. I have no knowledge or view as to whether the driver might be liable to the operator for a parking charge;
2. However, as keeper I am advising you that your Notice to Keeper does not comply with the mandatory requirements of PoFA and consequently you would not have a legal right to seek to hold the me, as keeper, liable for the parking charge (which is something you state in your PCN);
3. If you do not accept that they have not met the legal test to hold the keeper liable(i.e. compliance with Schedule for of PoFA) then on receipt of your rejection and IAS appeal code I would on appeal request the IAS to agree with me and to instruct you to cease any further action against me(which your PCN implies), in effect to injunct you against any further action against the keeper.

Sunshineoncov

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2024, 05:07:30 pm »
Any advice on my next steps? My appeal was rejected with the following:

Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have carefully considered your appeal, however on this occasion the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;
                                                                                                                         
Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, as per our photographic evidence, the vehicle was parked in contravention of the advertised terms and conditions. As the vehicle was not parked fully within a bay, we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.
 
You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; you can either pay or appeal to POPLA - you cannot do both:
 
You can pay the total amount due as shown above via the following payment options;
Call us on: 01302 513232
Pay online: www.pcnpayments.com
Send a postal order: Premier Park Ltd, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG
 
Or, you can appeal to an Independent Appeals Service, POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) using the POPLA reference code provided above. Please note, should you decide to appeal to POPLA and your appeal is subsequently rejected or you withdraw your appeal, the option to pay a discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount of the PCN will become due. Please note, if you pay the PCN prior to appealing to POPLA, your appeal will be withdrawn as you will have accepted liability in full.
 
If you decide to appeal to POPLA, you will need to visit their website, www.popla.co.uk where further details of how to appeal (either online or by downloading the relevant forms) can be found. If you are unable to access their website, please call us for further information on how to obtain the forms. Please ensure your POPLA Reference Number, as noted above, is quoted on all correspondence to POPLA. You have 28 days from the date of this email to submit an appeal to POPLA. If you appeal to POPLA we will suspend recovery activity on the PCN and the charge will not increase until the appeal has been determined.
 
By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services.org) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.
 
If you do not make payment or submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant timeframe, the outstanding PCN may be passed to our appointed debt collection agency for further action. All costs associated with this process will be added to the amount outstanding.
 

b789

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2024, 06:12:08 pm »
Any advice on my next steps? My appeal was rejected

Yes... Plan C, appeal to POPLA. The code you received lasts for 32 days, not 28 as they state. However, do not leave it too late. Show us what you intend to put in your POPLA appeal so that you can get some constructive criticism and corrections if necessary.

Remember that POPLA will only consider legal argument and BPA CoP breaches. Mitigation does not come into it.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for parking outside of the parking bay
« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2024, 01:44:04 pm »
Pl post their reply and what was actually submitted. Pl don't transpose, post copies.