Author Topic: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle  (Read 5569 times)

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Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #30 on: »
CPM do accept it. Tusker are telling porkies. All they do is transfer liability to the Hirer, which in this case is the employer. They include copies of the required documents and then they are off the hook. Simple.

The employer then waits to receive an NtH and decides how they want to handle it. They either appeal themselves as the Hirer or they give employee a letter of authority to handle on the companies behalf.

Please keep us updated on progress.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #31 on: »
CPM do accept it. Tusker are telling porkies. All they do is transfer liability to the Hirer, which in this case is the employer. They include copies of the required documents and then they are off the hook. Simple.

The employer then waits to receive an NtH and decides how they want to handle it. They either appeal themselves as the Hirer or they give employee a letter of authority to handle on the companies behalf.

Please keep us updated on progress.

I am tempted to get my mate to raise an official complaint to Tusker - he`s paying Tusker an admin fee too, surely they should have sent that  transfer of liability to CPM, just saying that CPM doesn`t accept it shouldn`t be accepted at face value.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #32 on: »
It certainly requires an answer from Tusker as to why they don't simply do the transfer of liability to the Hirer, irrespective of whether the vehicle is on a scary purchase scheme. They know that the company is the Hirer and it ice then up to the company to deal with it as the Hirer.

If they are saying that they have some form of agreement with the Hirer that they will not deal with PCNs, then that is likely unlawful. I'd press for evidence of CPMs refusal to accept liability transfer. All this would come out in any claim by the employee to recover their loss due to Tusker's incompetence.

A check on the BVRLA guidelines for this situation would be a useful read.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #33 on: »
Back to the law!

OP, it is immaterial what CPM want. The law is CLEAR.

IF Tusker are a 'vehicle-hire firm' and if the vehicle is being operated under a 'hire agreement' then the following applies:

Hire vehicles
13(1)This paragraph applies in the case of parking charges incurred in respect of the parking of a vehicle on relevant land if—

(a)the vehicle was at the time of parking hired to any person under a hire agreement with a vehicle-hire firm; and

(b)the keeper has been given a notice to keeper within the relevant period for the purposes of paragraph 8(4) or 9(4) (as the case may be).

(2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b)a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

(3)The statement of liability required by sub-paragraph (2)(c) must—

(a)contain a statement by the hirer to the effect that the hirer acknowledges responsibility for any parking charges that may be incurred with respect to the vehicle while it is hired to the hirer;


(b)include an address given by the hirer (whether a residential, business or other address) as one at which documents may be given to the hirer;

(and it is immaterial whether the statement mentioned in paragraph (a) relates also to other charges or penalties of any kind).


This is NOT transferring liability as such, it is about the vehicle-hire firm relieving themselves of liability. Whether the creditor then wishes to issue a Notice to Hirer this is their choice but it is a two-part process:
1. The vehicle-hire firm provide the creditor with the specified docs, this then gets them off the hook;
2. If the creditor wishes they may issue a NTH.

Sorry to be late to this but if your friend has the specified docs then they could write to CPM on behalf of Tusker- he has their written authority- and relieve Tusker of liability. As it is, it appears that a NTH wouldn't go to your friend but to his employer.

There is NO way in which your friend can have a demand direct from CPM, he is NOT a party to these proceedings, these are:

The creditor;
Tusker;
The hirer.

If he thinks he can finesse this so that his employer is not involved then he is mistaken.

So:
Is Tusker a vehicle--hire firm?
Is there a qualifying 'hire agreement'?

'hire agreement” means an agreement which—

(i)provides for a vehicle to be let to a person (“the hirer”) for a period of any duration (whether or not the period is capable of extension by agreement between the parties); and

(ii)is not a hire-purchase agreement within the meaning of the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

(b)any reference to the currency of a hire agreement includes a reference to any period during which, with the consent of the vehicle-hire firm, the hirer continues in possession of the vehicle as hirer, after the expiry of any period specified in the agreement but otherwise on terms and conditions specified in it; and


(c)“vehicle-hire firm” means any person engaged in the hiring of vehicles in the course of a business.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #34 on: »
Is there an echo in here?  ::)
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #35 on: »
Hi - Sorry I missed these notifications. CPM just replied and it seems that they have transferred liability to my friend and a notice has been generated - Please see below the appeal reply. My friend has not received the letter as of yet. Hopefully this should be coming soon.

Quote
PCN REFERENCE NUMBER:
DATE OF PARKING EVENT: 18th August 2024
 
 
PAYMENT DUE DATE: 14th November 2024
TOTAL AMOUNT DUE: £60.00
Dear Mr ,
Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge Notice.
At UK CPM we consider all appeals on a case-by-case basis. We take each appeal very seriously and thoroughly investigate any evidence that has been provided. We appreciate your circumstances and understand this is not a situation anyone would like to find themselves in; however, these parking conditions have been put in place to ensure fair usage for all motorists and support the needs of our client. After careful consideration, it is unfortunate that I am writing to you today to advise that on this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful.
The decision to uphold your parking charge notice has been made on the following basis.
Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, as per our photographic evidence, the vehicle was parked in contravention of the advertised terms and conditions. As the vehicle was parked without a valid permit on display, we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly. 
Please note, a new notice will automatically be generated and sent to you, as the liability has been transferred into your name. This is for your records only and does not allow you to appeal again internally or transfer liability. You now have 14 days from the date of your new notice to make payment at the reduced fee of £60.00. If payment is not received within 14 days, the fee will increase to the full amount of £100.00.
You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options; either pay or appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) - you cannot do both.
To make payment of the total amount due as shown above, please use one of the following payment options;
•   Online: www.paymyticket.co.uk
•   Telephone: 0345 463 4040 (24hr)
•   Post: Payments & Collections, PO Box 3114, Lancing, BN15 5BR
Alternatively, if you do not agree with your internal appeal outcome and you wish to dispute the matter further, as you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.
The Independent Appeals Service (www.theIAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. If you decide to appeal to the IAS, you will need to visit their website and use your PCN reference and corresponding vehicle registration. All PCN's will be uploaded to the IAS website by the end of this working day.
If you appeal this charge further then you will lose the ability to pay at the reduced rate (if applicable). In the event that your IAS appeal is unsuccessful, the full amount for the PCN will then be payable. If you lodge an appeal with the IAS and then subsequently pay the charge prior to that appeal being determined, then the appeal will be withdrawn, and you will not be given a further opportunity to contest the charge.
If you do not wish to dispute the matter further and payment is not received within 28 days of the date of this correspondence then additional charges may be incurred, for which you may be liable. If the charge continues to remain outstanding, the matter may be later referred for litigation in the County Court which could result in a County Court Judgment being made against you; this may impact on your ability to obtain credit in the future.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #36 on: »
Who received this letter? Who is it addressed to? Who is the "friend" that liability has been transferred to?

It admits that liability has been transferred to someone. It is not clear from what you say, who that is.

Your "friend" appears to be the person who liability has been transferred to but they have not yet received a PCN in their name. Liability as what? The Keeper? The Hirer?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #37 on: »
Who received this letter? Who is it addressed to? Who is the "friend" that liability has been transferred to?

It admits that liability has been transferred to someone. It is not clear from what you say, who that is.

Your "friend" appears to be the person who liability has been transferred to but they have not yet received a PCN in their name. Liability as what? The Keeper? The Hirer?

My Friend received this appeal response to his email. Apparently the liability has been transferred to him - but so far no notice received.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #38 on: »
But we don’t know what your friend wrote in their appeal. Please show us.

I also remind you about my advice in this post on the 18t October on the likely outcome of any appeal:

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-broadstairs-botany-bay-cpm-lease-vehicle/msg41391/#msg41391
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #39 on: »
The hirer is your friend's employer, yes?


Therefore as a matter of law your friend may not be held liable by the creditor in lieu of the keeper, it's simply not possible.

They may hold your friend liable as driver, in which case PoFA is irrelevant, there's no such thing as a NTH or NTK and the creditor may pursue them pure and simply as a party to the (alleged breached) of contract. There are NO 'notices' as such, the creditor as prospective claimant may issue a Letter of Claim but this is Administration of Justice procedure, not PoFA.

Having said this, let's see the 'notice which is for your[your friend's] records only' when it arrives.

While PoFA doesn't apply, the creditor's Code of Practice does and in this case it appears that an appeal to IAS should be made and should be successful simply because the creditor has no legal right under PoFA to hold your friend liable. The whys and wherefores of the breach etc. etc. are not the issue.

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #40 on: »
But we don’t know what your friend wrote in their appeal. Please show us.

I also remind you about my advice in this post on the 18t October on the likely outcome of any appeal:

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-broadstairs-botany-bay-cpm-lease-vehicle/msg41391/#msg41391

This was written for the appeal https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-broadstairs-botany-bay-cpm/msg39979/#msg39979

Yes I have read the advice - Considering now that CPM are saying they will send a new notice - does that actually transfer liability? We are still waiting for the letter and as soon as I have it I will post it here.


Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #41 on: »
The hirer is your friend's employer, yes?


Therefore as a matter of law your friend may not be held liable by the creditor in lieu of the keeper, it's simply not possible.

They may hold your friend liable as driver, in which case PoFA is irrelevant, there's no such thing as a NTH or NTK and the creditor may pursue them pure and simply as a party to the (alleged breached) of contract. There are NO 'notices' as such, the creditor as prospective claimant may issue a Letter of Claim but this is Administration of Justice procedure, not PoFA.

Having said this, let's see the 'notice which is for your[your friend's] records only' when it arrives.

While PoFA doesn't apply, the creditor's Code of Practice does and in this case it appears that an appeal to IAS should be made and should be successful simply because the creditor has no legal right under PoFA to hold your friend liable. The whys and wherefores of the breach etc. etc. are not the issue.

Should i get my friend to chase CPM to send the notice? and then appeal via IAS?

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #42 on: »
Until your friend receives the PCN addressed to them, we won't know whether liability has been transferred. I doubt that Tusker transferred the liability correctly in the first place so, technically, they could still be liable under PoFA.

I certainly don't have any faith in the IAS to adjudicate fairly, no matter how obvious to us that there isn't a c case to answer.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #43 on: »
To repeat what I posted previously.

Your friend cannot receive a PCN (which, although not a defined term under PoFA, is used in procedural parlance to mean Parking Charge Notice) because them demanding money from your friend is OUTSIDE PoFA because (although you haven't confirmed the point I will use as a working hypothesis) he is neither the keeper(a defined term) nor the hirer under a hire agreement with the keeper.

PoFA deals ONLY with keeper liability and in this context how the registered keeper may relieve themselves of their procedural liability if they are a vehicle-hire firm.

Your friend's position and future options would become clearer when this promised letter arrives.

Feel free to read for yourself:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
« Reply #44 on: »
Your friend cannot receive a PCN
He can receive one if they send him one. Whether that would mean he owes any money demanded is another matter enitrely. It may be helpful to differentiate between what a company should do based on the relevant legislation, vs what they might choose to do.