Author Topic: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car  (Read 2764 times)

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Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #15 on: »
Thank you. Your responses lead me to feel confident in not paying the £60. 

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #16 on: »
Where are your photos?? And put them in context e.g. these are at the entrance and these are placed at A,B and C as marked on the GSV snapshot etc.

With respect to b789 and the judge, there's a step missing in their analysis.

A motorist does NOT have 5 minutes to read the sign and pay, they have 5 minutes from entering the car park to pay and this includes:

Noting the contents of the entry signs - which we haven't seen;
Finding a parking space, parking, off-loading any items, securing the car, finding a Ts and Cs board and then reading and acting upon its contents.

ALL potentially within 5 minutes of an unknown time because, unless instructed to do so, the motorist would not note the time of entry as they would not have any reason to do so.

AND..when commencing the payment process how would a driver know whether they had breached the '5-minute' requirement and thereby left themselves liable to a parking charge of the SAME amount as if they had simply not bothered to pay at all...and therefore paying the parking tariff under false impressions?

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #17 on: »
Please find Photos attached.

The first photo is the driver's side as you enter the car park.

The second photo is the passenger's side as you enter the car park. 

The third photo is a closer photo of the sign on the driver's side.  In the background,is a sign saying that the car park is covered by ANPR.


I've some more so will attach to a another message.




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Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #18 on: »
Further photos..

First- Close up of entrance sign- passenger's side

Second- The sign by the payment machine.

Third- closer photo of the T and C's

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Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #19 on: »
With respect to @H C Andersen, the central issue is whether the 5 minute clause in the contractual sign is enforceable. Whilst the judge and I disagreed on whether it is an unlawful penalty clause or, in their opinion simply a clause that penalises someone if they breach it, may come down to semantics.

The judge considers the facts only. As far as this judge is concerned, if the clause is in the contractual sign, then it is simply a clause. If you were to argue that it is impossible to comply with the clause and the clause is central to the performance of the contract, then the whole contract is void.

As far as this contract is concerned, it is central to the performance of the contract and therefore the whole contracts void. That is how this judge thinks. Other judges (judge bingo) may approach it differently.

The leading case in English law is Cavendish Square Holding BV v Makdessi and ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. These cases establish that a clause is not a penalty if it protects a legitimate business interest of the non-breaching party, and is not out of proportion to that legitimate interest.

In ParkingEye v Beavis, the Supreme Court held that a parking charge was not a penalty because it served a legitimate interest (e.g., managing parking spaces) and was proportionate. However, if the charge is excessive, arbitrary, or does not reflect a legitimate interest, it should be considered a penalty and therefore unenforceable.

I would argue that a clause that penalises someone for breaching it can only be a penalty clause. Maybe it's semantics but you must look at whether the clause aims to deter breach or punish the breaching party. If so, it can only be deemed a penalty clause.

The judge's reasoning, to me and many others, appears contradictory and, as far as I'm concerned reflects a misunderstanding of the legal principles surrounding penalty clauses and I intend to argue it further with him when we next meet.

Under English law, a penalty clause is one that imposes a detriment on a party for breaching a contract, where that detriment is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss or is disproportionate to any legitimate interest of the other party. Because the judge stated that the clause "penalises the driver if they breach it", that in itself suggests the clause imposes a "penalty" for non-compliance. If that is the case, how can this clause be considered anything but a penalty clause?

The judge's assertion that the clause "is not a penalty clause" but "penalises the driver" conflates the clause's punitive nature with its enforceability. If the clause's purpose is to penalise rather than compensate for actual loss, it is, by definition, a penalty clause.

In light of Cavendish Square v Makdessi and ParkingEye v Beavis, the clause should be examined as follows:

Does the 5-minute limit serve a legitimate interest of the parking operator (e.g., ensuring turnover of parking spaces)? While there may be some legitimate interest, the clause's effect of penalising non-compliance, particularly given the practical impossibility of compliance, suggests it is disproportionate.

Is the detriment imposed (the £100 parking charge) out of proportion to the legitimate interest? The time limit starting from the ANPR camera entry, combined with the impracticality of complying, suggests that the clause is unreasonable and therefore punitive.

The clause requires actions (finding a space, reading terms, setting up payment etc.) that are impossible to complete within 5 minutes. This undermines the fairness of the clause and its enforceability.

The strict 5-minute timeframe effectively sets up drivers to fail, especially considering the logistical realities of parking and reading extensive contractual terms. There is no way that the operator suffers a tangible loss if the payment is made slightly later or even at the end of the parking session, undermining any argument that the charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

The clause appears to deter breaches rather than protect a legitimate interest, making it punitive and therefore, unenforceable.

If it were ever to actually get as far as a hearing, you would only need to highlight the practical impossibility of complying with the clause, rendering it inherently unfair. You would also argue that the charge imposed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and is disproportionate to any legitimate interest. Reference to the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which requires terms to be fair and transparent mean that an unachievable requirement is neither.

So if a clause penalises a driver for breaching it and does not align with the tests established in Cavendish Square v Makdessi, it can and can only be treated as a penalty clause. My argument with the judge's reasoning is that he conflates the punitive nature of the clause with its enforceability, which is contradictory under established legal principles.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #20 on: »
My PCN should be paid for by tomorrow.  Would your advice be to sit tight and wait to hear from them?  Thanks.

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #21 on: »
What do you mean “should be paid by tomorrow”? Are you tempted by the “mugs discount” to pay the invoice? Do you feel that the invoice you received is fair and you owe Excel the money they are demanding?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #22 on: »
No I don't think it is fair and I don't feel I owe Excel any money, I paid, just late due to an oversight.  That said, the thought of waiting for letters and threats does make me feel a bit nervous!

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #23 on: »
'..due to an oversight..'??

'The driver went into Derby with their daughter who felt off colour on the way.  They got to Copeland Street car park and looked around for a space.  It too a few minutes.  They both got out of the car and the daughter stumbled and fell.  She hurt her hands and the driver comforted her for a few minutes.'

This isn't an 'oversight', it's a practical example of what's been posted i.e. the impracticality of complying with the key clause in the 'contract'. In the above the driver could not have complied.

Read the entrance sign;
Find a space;
Park;
Secure vehicle, its load and passengers;
Find Ts and Cs board;
Find payment method;
Pay.

All in no more than 5 minutes.

Each case turns on its own facts i.e. a frequent user parking their vehicle in a practically empty car park and not having any responsibilities other than themselves is not a first-time user with a young and vulnerable passenger parking in a practically full car park.

Whether the driver paid after 6 or 66 minutes makes no difference to the creditor.

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #24 on: »
No I don't think it is fair and I don't feel I owe Excel any money, I paid, just late due to an oversight.  That said, the thought of waiting for letters and threats does make me feel a bit nervous!

Why would you feel nervous about receiving useless debt collector letters? What are you nervous about? The debt collectors are not a party to the contract allegedly breached by the driver and cannot do anything. They rely on the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree to pay up out of ignorance and unjustified fear.

We advise on this process day and day out. It is, for most people, an eye opening experience where they learn a lot about the civil legal process and why they should not fear it.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #25 on: »
Thank you both so much for the time you've taken to reply. It's very reassuring to read your responses. As you have said, it's an eye opening opening experience. 

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #26 on: »
Hello,

I've received a letter from a debt collection agency.  Is your advice that I should I sit tight and not respond?  It states that if I don't respond their next step will be to recommend legal action.

Thanks.

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #27 on: »
Yes - it is a letter of claim or a claim form from the court you are looking out for.

Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #28 on: »
Good evening,

I've received a court letter.  I wondered if anyone can offer advice on how to best proceed?

Thank you.


Re: Parking Charge in Derby- Paid on return to car
« Reply #29 on: »
Please tell us how we can advise if we have not seen the letter?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain