Author Topic: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement  (Read 4383 times)

0 Members and 248 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #15 on: »
You're not the registered keeper, but you were keeping the vehicle at the relevant time in your capacity as the hirer. As long as your actual appeal makes clear the capacity in which you are appealing that should be fine.

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #16 on: »
You're not the registered keeper, but you were keeping the vehicle at the relevant time in your capacity as the hirer. As long as your actual appeal makes clear the capacity in which you are appealing that should be fine.

Brilliant thanks, so I will answer "YES" in the dropdown but clarify in my text that I am NOT the "registered" keeper but HIRER at the time of the alleged breach.


Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #17 on: »
You are not saying the driver is "unknown". We are saying that the driver is "unknown" to the operator. All you are saying, as the Hirer, is that you decline to identify the driver and there is no legal obligation on you to do so to an unregulated private parking firm.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #18 on: »
You are not saying the driver is "unknown". We are saying that the driver is "unknown" to the operator. All you are saying, as the Hirer, is that you decline to identify the driver and there is no legal obligation on you to do so to an unregulated private parking firm.

Thanks, I have copy pasted your entire appeal text and barely added a line at the top that I am not the "registered" keeper.

Got the following automated response on email:
What happens now?

Your appeal has been sent to the parking operator so that they can provide their account.

The Parking Operator is now provided 5 working days to upload sufficient evidence to show that you are liable for the charge.

Once they have submitted their evidence you will be able to log in and see it. You will then have 5 working days to respond in one of TWO ways:

1) SUBMIT YOUR APPEAL - You can respond to the evidence by making any representations that you consider to be relevant as to the lawfulness of the charge any by uploading any photographs or other evidence that you may have. Once you submit your response it will go back to the operator who may wish to respond or send the appeal straight to arbitration. In the case of the operator responding, you will receive another chance to respond.

- OR -

2) REFER THE CASE STRAIGHT TO ARBITRATION - If you consider that the information provided is not capable of showing that you are, on the face of it, responsible for the parking charge, then you may choose this option. The Adjudicator will assess the evidence provided by the operator and appellant. You will not have the opportunity of making representations and the Adjudicator will decide, on the balance of probabilities, whether you are liable for the parking charge.

You will be notified by email when you are able to proceed further.

Caution: Once the operator has uploaded their evidence, if you do not respond in one of the above two ways within 5 working days, your appeal will be submitted to the Adjudicator WITHOUT your response to the operators evidence that will be available to you.

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #19 on: »
NPC have responded on the IAS website

Most of the evidence is a repeat of what I had already shared here in my initial post.

There is one added "Transfer of Liability" letter from the leasing company which is below:


Leasing company has mentioned my details as the "driver", not sure if this can be take as evidence by NPC to claim as such. Please advise.

The photos of the vehicle have time stamps from 18:34:17 to 18:35:58 (so total less than 2 minutes)

This is the text from NPC as uploaded on the IAS website:


Please advise how I should proceed, I have the option to add text as well as attachments to respond (post which the operator would get a chance to respond again) OR I can submit straight to arbitration.

Many thanks in advance

They have also added sitemap (as below) and pdf files of all the signage online (not sure how relevant)

« Last Edit: August 20, 2025, 11:59:21 am by 8vaibhav »

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #20 on: »
Please confirm that as the lessee, you can insure the vehicle for other drivers? For example, you spouse or partner or other family members? Octopus have no idea who the driver is unless, under the terms of the lease agreement, you are the sole permitted driver of the vehicle.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #21 on: »
Please confirm that as the lessee, you can insure the vehicle for other drivers? For example, you spouse or partner or other family members? Octopus have no idea who the driver is unless, under the terms of the lease agreement, you are the sole permitted driver of the vehicle.

Insurance for the vehicle is included as part of the lease. There is an 'option' to add additional driver which would increase monthly costs but as it stands there is NO other driver insured to drive the vehicle.

I recall in the past, Octopus passed my details as "Hirer" to another private parking operator but for reasons unknown this time they chose to use "Driver" instead of "Hirer" in their communication to NPC.

We are still within the 14 days period of the "discount" fwiw, thinking about options here. Many thanks in advance.

**EDIT: Even though when NPC rejected my appeal on 18th Aug, it said that the "Discounted" £60 is due for two weeks, now on their website the amount due has already jumped to £100. I think they updated it when they responded to my IAS appeal.**
« Last Edit: August 20, 2025, 01:18:12 pm by 8vaibhav »

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #22 on: »
For the IAS appeal, you can use the following as your rebuttal to the operators prima facie case:

Quote
PCN [ref] – VRM [VRM] – Comments on Operator Evidence (rebuttal)

1. Status. I am the hirer, not the “keeper”. For a hire vehicle the operator must comply strictly with PoFA Sch 4 paras 13–14. Their evidence contains no para 13(2) enclosures.

2. Warden ticket + same-day notice. The operator says a warden ticket was issued 30/07/2025 and a “Notice to Keeper (Non-ANPR)” was sent the same day. That sequence is incompatible with PoFA for a warden (NtD) case. In any event, with a hire vehicle, the operative notice is a Notice to Hirer that also satisfies paras 13–14. It doesn’t.

3. Hire-vehicle documents missing (fatal). To transfer liability to a hirer the operator must serve a Notice to Hirer enclosing (i) a copy of the hire agreement and (ii) a statement of liability signed by the hirer (para 13(2)), within the para 14 timeframe. These documents are absent. Therefore no hirer liability arises.

4. Burden of proof. The operator’s line “we have not received anything to state [the hirer] was not driving” is irrelevant. There is no obligation to identify the driver. The operator must either prove the driver or comply with PoFA. It has done neither.

5. Octopus EV letter. The operator relies on a third-party letter that mislabels the charge as a “fine/offence” and asserts I was the “driver”. Octopus was not present; this is inaccurate hearsay and is not proof of driver identity. It cannot remedy PoFA defects.

6. Signage – ambiguity and inconsistency. The sign provided states:

“You must park wholly within a marked bay. No parking on roadways / yellow lines / paved / hatched or landscaped areas.”

(a) The entire car park surface is paved, including marked bays. The phrase “no parking on … paved … areas” renders the terms ambiguous/contradictory.
(b) The ticket alleges parking on a “pavement”, yet the sign never uses that word and gives no clear boundary between a permitted marked bay and any allegedly prohibited paved area. Ambiguous terms are construed against the drafter; they cannot found a charge.

7. Contract vs prohibition. The operator pleads a contractual charge, but its wording is essentially prohibitive with no clear offer for the area complained of. If the area is prohibited, it cannot create a contract by “breach”. If it is contractual, the terms are unclear and not capable of acceptance with informed consent.

. Saying “timestamped photos advise how long the vehicle was observed” is not proof of a continuous period outside any consideration/grace allowance or proof of parking rather than a brief stop. The operator should produce the observation log and a continuous sequence; they have not.

9. Authority. The operator asserts the charge is “based in Contract”. They must show contemporaneous landowner authority permitting enforcement and proceedings in their own name. None has been exhibited.

Conclusion: Driver identity is unproven; PoFA hire-vehicle requirements are not met (paras 13–14 and timing/sequence); the signage is ambiguous/internally inconsistent for the alleged location; standing is unproven; and the third-party letter is not evidence of the driver. The appeal must be allowed.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #23 on: »
Many thanks for the detailed response. You are a STAR.


Quote
. Saying “timestamped photos advise how long the vehicle was observed” is not proof of a continuous period outside any consideration/grace allowance or proof of parking rather than a brief stop. The operator should produce the observation log and a continuous sequence; they have not.


I have a doubt about just one of the points in what you wrote. The photos they have shared are indeed in a "continuous sequence", even as the time between first and last picture of the vehicle is less than 2 minutes.
Also, I think they are working on the principle that "20 minute" loading is allowed while on pavements NO parking is allowed. I am happy to copy paste the entire text you shared as my appeal but would like to understand what this point meant. Many thanks.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2025, 03:22:05 pm by 8vaibhav »

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #24 on: »
I also advise you to send the following complaint to Octopus EV at penalties@octopusev.com and that you CC customerservice@octopusev.com and data-protection@octopusev.com as well as yourself:

Quote
Subject: Complaint & rectification notice – inaccurate identification of “driver” re PCN [PCN ref], VRM [VRM]

To: penalties@octopusev.com
Cc: customerservice@octopusev.com; data-protection@octopusev.com

From: [Hirer’s full name], Hirer of vehicle [VRM]

Date: [insert]

Dear Penalties Team / Data Protection Officer,

Re: National Parking Control Ltd – PCN [ref]; vehicle [VRM]; event date [dd/mm/yyyy]

I am the hirer. Your letter dated [date] (headed “Notice of Representation”) appears in the operator’s evidence. It contains serious errors that prejudice my appeal:

• You misdescribe a private parking charge as a “fine/offence.”
• You state that I was the driver despite having no first-hand knowledge.
• You purport to transfer liability while ignoring the hire-vehicle regime in PoFA Sch 4 paras 13–14.

Why your “driver” assertion is inaccurate and unreasonable
The vehicle is insured under the lease and, as you know, only the hirer is named by default unless a nominated driver is added. That administrative fact does not evidence who was driving at the material time. Someone else could have been driving under their own cover, under temporary cover, as a garage/valet/breakdown operative, or unlawfully (which you cannot assume to be the case). In short, you had no evidential basis to assert I was the driver.

This is a breach of UK GDPR:

Accuracy (Art 5(1)(d)) – you disclosed inaccurate personal data by asserting I was the driver.
Data minimisation (Art 5(1)(c)) – naming a “driver” was unnecessary to the stated purpose.
Fairness/lawfulness (Art 5(1)(a)) – the “fine/offence” language is misleading.

What I require

Please action the following:

1. Rectification (within 48 hours): confirm you do not know who the driver was; correct your records; and notify the operator that any suggestion I was the driver, and any references to “fine/offence,” are withdrawn as inaccurate. Please copy me.

2. Explanation (within 7 days): tell me exactly what you relied upon to label me the “driver” (templates, policies, staff guidance, or an inference from insurance), and the lawful basis for each disclosure made about me in this matter. Provide copies of all communications you sent to the operator.

3. Assurance (within 7 days): confirm your templates and staff guidance will be corrected so that future correspondence (a) refers to “hirer,” not “driver,” unless evidenced, and (b) does not describe private charges as “fines/offences.”

I reserve all rights, including seeking compensation under Article 82 UK GDPR / s.168 DPA 2018 and escalating to the ICO, should your error cause loss or further prejudice. Nothing in this complaint admits the identity of the driver.

Yours faithfully,

[Name]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Wow Wow x 1 View List

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #25 on: »
Thanks for typing this out.
As my lease is about to end, I am thinking to not complain as of now. But would note this for future.

Quote

Someone else could have been driving under their own cover, under temporary cover, as a garage/valet/breakdown operative, or unlawfully (which you cannot assume to be the case).


I did previously try to get a separate insurance cover for my spouse who Octopus wouldn't allow to add to the contract on a "learners' license". Basically Octopus had said another person getting a separate insurance to drive the leased car isn't allowed. I eventually couldn't get my spouse added as they didn't have a full UK license.

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #26 on: »
As my lease is about to end, I am thinking to not complain as of now. But would note this for future.

That is a bit silly. You are entitled to compensation for any breach of your GDPR.

They have dobbed you in it with the IAS, so that is not going to end successfully for you. You can easily fight this all the way through the eventual county court claim but I suspect, based on your response above, that you are going to try and settle for the mugs discount.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #27 on: »
As my lease is about to end, I am thinking to not complain as of now. But would note this for future.

That is a bit silly. You are entitled to compensation for any breach of your GDPR.

They have dobbed you in it with the IAS, so that is not going to end successfully for you. You can easily fight this all the way through the eventual county court claim but I suspect, based on your response above, that you are going to try and settle for the mugs discount.

Thanks, I can complain but surely saying a person with another insurance cover is like saying I could have been breaching the terms of the lease which explicitly disallow this. Also, while the private parking companies are absolute SCUMs and you are doing god's work fighting against them Octopus have merely shown incompetence.

I am now thinking to complain without the line about "temporary cover" or "own cover". This would help people fight future PCNs surely.

Meanwhile I will also respond on IAS using your amazing template with minor edits.

Greatly appreciate all the help.

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #28 on: »
As my lease is about to end, I am thinking to not complain as of now. But would note this for future.

That is a bit silly. You are entitled to compensation for any breach of your GDPR.

They have dobbed you in it with the IAS, so that is not going to end successfully for you. You can easily fight this all the way through the eventual county court claim but I suspect, based on your response above, that you are going to try and settle for the mugs discount.

Your message edged me to send the complaint email to Octopus yesterday. They have just sent the following back:

----------
From: <penalties@octopusev.com>
CC: penalties@octopusev.com; Fleetworks Admin <admin@fleetworks.co>; data-protection@octopusev.com

Sub: Re: Complaint & rectification notice –  regarding identification of “driver” re PCN xxxxx, VRM xxxxxx

Thank you for your email.

Just to let you know, we are looking into this for you and we will get back to you as soon as we can. In the meantime if you need anything urgently, please give us a call on 020 3389 5959.

Kind regards,

Fleet Admin Team
Octopus Electric Vehicles

----------

Should I call them and repeat the request to contact operator ASAP? (Something I requested to be acted up within 48 hours in my email to them)

Re: NPC Notice to Hirer: Parked on Pavement
« Reply #29 on: »
It's not going to make any difference to the IAS decision. In the vast majority of IAS decisions, they are going to back their brother parking firms. The IAS is a kangaroo court.

However, an IAS decision is not binding. The majority of these cases are won after a county court claim is issued, with the vast majority being discontinued.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List